Notion-like FOSS app

[yusf]

@will said in Notion-like FOSS app:

your expectations will change in what you desire from personal database software

And as in my case it's not "personal" at all but used professionally in small and large teams. So expectations will probably surge towards any software you use

I feel that FOSS wiki software stayed ahead of the curve for some years, but now using MediaWiki/Dokuwiki/Wiki.js/Bookstack after using Notion for a while is pretty painful. I already feel I have to protect some userbases I maintain from experiencing Notion so that I still can deliver on providable FOSS wiki systems.

[murgero]

@jdaviescoates said in Notion-like FOSS app:

but how are any of those apps anything like @yusf is talking about, ie "Notion, Airtable, Coda, Next Matter"?

The first 6 apps I listed are feature-like to what notion advertises on its site. Airtable and openoffice are similar, openoffice and coda are similar too (by allowing collaberation on documentation for example)

Don't know why I was downvoted so much - I wasn't saying anything rude. I just listed apps that are currently available in Cloudron that can be used while notion is talked about... like what?

[will]

Try out notion, and then comment, you're being downvoted because you're speaking from a place of a lack of knowledge on the given topic. Your comments are not helpful on this specific topic because by your suggestions, it is obvious that you've never used notion.
I say this with love my friend, try out notion and see how different it is from other solutions in this space.

[murgero]

@will I'll give notion a try I guess. but speaking from a purely technical standpoint I don't believe my comment justified being downvoted so much.

I am sure notion is probably leagues better than using some 3rd party nextcloud apps, but the OP asked what FOSS solutions were out there, I obliged the question. That's all.

[will]

@murgero Again, how can you judge the technical merits of one solution compared to another when you clearly don't understand the feature set or use case of one of the solutions?
Thats why you were down voted, and because your continued refusal to see the error of your understandable gap in knowledge, it comes across as hubris.
Your heart is in the right place, but once you were told that your alternatives were not relevant, continuing to debate and come up with more non-applicable examples did nothing but muddy the waters and detract from finding a solution to OP's original question.

The point is Notion isn't the end all be all, but it is super novel and unique, and a self hosted alternative would be super cool. As far as I can tell, one doesn't exist. Hope that changes!

[murgero]

@will said in Notion-like FOSS app:

The point is Notion isn't the end all be all, but it is super novel and unique, and a self hosted alternative would be super cool. As far as I can tell, one doesn't exist. Hope that changes!

Did you guys even read my response? I posted a FOSS replacement for Notion - that has ALL of notions FEATURES that are listed on the site. With the knowledge I had, I answered the ORIGINAL QUESTION the original poster had:

"So, is there anything FOSS that can even begin to compare to Notion?"

Yes, NextCloud can compare to Notion, as far as features go. I also happened to list other groupware like features because notion is groupware.

Yes - I already acknowledged my knowledge of Notion was limited, and I even tried it. It's f--king amazing! BUT OP asked for a FOSS replacement for it, not if it was Open Source itself...

Go back and read my original response. I'll even edit it to specifically point out where NextCloud and Notion are the same (as far as the feature goes).

Edit: I'd like to apologize if my response comes off nasty. I do not mean to try and offend anyone on the forum. I'm just trying to stick to my original point. I hope we can all still be friends

[yusf]

I acknowledge the genuine intent of your original reply, @murgero. Thank you. As one of the recurring Cloudron community members your enthusiasm to further the project and help users out is quite notable.

I think that the nature of what Notion brings makes it especially prone to be overlooked feature-wise compared to other tools: it’s the specific way of how elements from other novel tools are put together that makes Notion unique.

So let’s move on. Notion has no FOSS counterpart for the time being. I don’t even se any FOSS no-code tools like the other ones mentioned in the original post. But let’s keep our ears to the ground.

[jeau]

@yusf some venerable wikis I used allow to generate dynamic elements and input interfaces in pages and build simple applications on demand with scripting.

• TWiki and Foswiki with their own markup language, macros and numerous extensions.
• Xwiki use Velocity, Groovy and code snippets.

Recently Mavo opened: "A new, approachable way to create web applications. Create complex, reactive, persistent web applications by just writing HTML & CSS, without a single line of JavaScript and no server backend. Developed in the Haystack Group at MIT CSAIL and led by Lea Verou. "

[yusf]

@jeau I appreciate the suggestions and I recognize the similarities but their too far off still unfortunately.

[murgero]

@yusf Yeah - Sorry yusf. I get really passionate about FOSS as you can see

[will]

@murgero Im with you! I used to be die hard anti FOSS, now I'm studying CompSci so I can help out around here!
If you think of FOSS in interpersonal relations, I just gave you a push to your mental git repo hahahah I hope you'll return the favor when I stumble!

[seeker]

@yusf
My understanding is that anytype .io is similar to Notion. The developers say they plan to open source it after they release it.
It is built on IPFS. You can check out a video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hblHWfXA3XU

I have no affiliation. I just stumbled upon it and have been awaiting its release. If it lives up to the hype, I hope to somehow use it with cloudron

[will]

@seeker Awesome app! This looks seriously awesome!

[seeker]

@will Yeah, I agree. I have been waiting for their beta. As for another possibility- there is also Tiddlywiki. Years ago the hurdle was collaboration. I wonder if they have solved that with a plugin or something

[yusf]

@seeker Yeah! There we go! Anytype definitely looks like a viable alternative.

[seeker]

@yusf Agreed. Fingers crossed it come through

[necrevistonnezr]

FYI: Notion just removed the block limits in the free plan: https://www.notion.so/pricing

Free for individuals
Unlimited pages & blocks
Share with 5 guests
Sync across devices

File uploads still limited to 5 MB.

[girish]

https://github.com/outline/outline looks great but from the issue tracker it seems that author will not merge features like LDAP as they don't make sense for his SaaS.

[jdaviescoates]

@girish said in Notion-like FOSS app:

https://github.com/outline/outline looks great but from the issue tracker it seems that author will not merge features like LDAP as they don't make sense for his SaaS.

Although on their pricing page they do advertise SSO as an Enterprise option

[girish]

I was commenting based on https://github.com/outline/outline/pull/939

[marcusquinn]

Would you consider CodiMD covers the main usage and needs that you get from Notion perhaps?

https://cloudron.io/store/io.hackmd.cloudronapp.html

[marcusquinn]

And for an AirTable alternative I'm a big fan of what Directus makes easier:

https://directus.io

[jdaviescoates]

@marcuswquinn said in Notion-like FOSS app:

Would you consider CodiMD covers the main usage and needs that you get from Notion perhaps?
https://cloudron.io/store/io.hackmd.cloudronapp.html

No. It's not even remotely comparable.

[marcusquinn]

@jdaviescoates Fair enough. I'm with you on keeping data on a platform you control though.

Outline looks cool, so that LDAP pull request gets merged.

Certainly interested in what else comes from this thread.

[marcusquinn]

Since I can't resist a FOSS Alternative search, this looks interesting if you're into AirTable:

LeanTime looks similar at first glance: https://leantime.io

More info in the Docs: https://docs.leantime.io

Not tried it and I've no idea on your usage and needs so just adding for the record really.

Personally I like Directus for being both standardised, openness and portable data.

If I were in the market for AirTable it would be difficult to choose it against Odoo but then if you want coddles you'd need an enterprise subscription for Odoo Studio: https://www.odoo.com/page/studio

[marcusquinn]

A couple more that look worth watching at least:

https://wiki.js.org (already on Cloudron)

https://anytype.io
https://github.com/anytypeio
https://twitter.com/AnytypeLabs

[marcusquinn]

Twake looks interesting: https://twake.app

[rmdes]

Baserow : This under development project seems to be in the "alternative to airtable" category : https://baserow.io/ https://gitlab.com/bramw/baserow

Notion :
I have a friend that moved his entire wordpress.org blog (15 years of posts) to guess what ?
notion !

He's definitely part of the no-code approach and bootstrap lots of different journalist/media projects with no-code approaches.

I wish I could convince him to use something else and instead have an entire cloudron powering his infrastructure, but without a serious FOSS alternative to notion I won't get him on our boat

[yusf]

@rmdes Exactly. There’s no arguing against such superior product.

If only there was a way to make sure FOSS devs got paid for their work…

[marcusquinn]

@yusf I think GitHub Sponsoring is making better inroads for that. Be good if GitLab followed that too.

[jdaviescoates]

@marcusquinn said in Notion-like FOSS app:

https://anytype.io
https://github.com/anytypeio
https://twitter.com/AnytypeLabs

Yeah @seeker mentioned Anytype.io higher up the thread, looks like it'sthe closest thing to an open source Notion.

Fill in this form to help them prioritise (and likely get you up the wait list too):

https://anytype.typeform.com/to/bRQZWx

[jdaviescoates]

@marcusquinn said in Notion-like FOSS app:

Be good if GitLab followed that too.

Yeah, although nothing stopping anyone setting up OpenCollective and Liberapay accounts and adding the info to their README in GitLab

Both are open source too. Open Collective isn't really designed/ ready to self-host yet but you can support those efforts here https://opencollective.com/community and upvote here:

https://forum.cloudron.io/post/5408

[jdaviescoates]

@marcusquinn said in Notion-like FOSS app:

Twake looks interesting: https://twake.app

It's nothing like Notion imho, but does indeed look pretty nice!

Upvote here:
https://forum.cloudron.io/post/10591

[jdaviescoates]

@jdaviescoates said in Notion-like FOSS app:

Yeah @seeker mentioned Anytype.io higher up the thread, looks like it'sthe closest thing to an open source Notion.

I attended an intro webinar thing about anytype.io the other day.

It's pretty cool, but they have no plans for a web app.

It's all based on IPFS

[yusf]

@jdaviescoates Interesting. What's the front-end stack like?

[jdaviescoates]

@yusf as in what is it coded in? I'm not sure actually. If they covered that it was during the part I missed!

[yusf]

@jdaviescoates If they have no plans for a web app I really wonder what stack they're using and possible subsequent lockins.

But regardless I'm also interested in what they did have to say about their project.

[seeker]

@jdaviescoates Thanks! I am curious how did you find out about the information session?

[jdaviescoates]

@seeker I filled in this form:
anytype.typeform.com/to/bRQZWx

You can also join their Telegram group if that's your thing:
t.me/anytype

[soup]

If there's still interest around this question, the most promising option right now is Athens, which aims to be an alternative to Roam and Notion (and is getting close to feature-parity).

[marcusquinn]

@soup Nice spot! Trial by downloaded Electron version is handy too. Looks like it deserves it's own App Wishlist post if you'd like the finder's honours?

[jdaviescoates]

@marcusquinn said in Notion-like FOSS app:

Looks like it deserves it's own App Wishlist post if you'd like the finder's honours?

I only had a very quick look but it looks like Athens is like Anytype in that it's not actually a server thing at all, no? i.e. I think it's just a desktop app, not a web app, no?

[soup]

@marcusquinn said in Notion-like FOSS app:

Looks like it deserves it's own App Wishlist post if you'd like the finder's honours?

Yep, can do the post :).

@marcusquinn @girish
Can I do one post for Athens and one for Logseq? Both are doing the same thing, the difference being that (i) Athens goes with a custom format for storing files, while Logseq works with text files (both markdown and org mode) [edit: Athens also aims to store information in text files in the future] and (ii) can sync via Github (+Gitlab, WebDAV, etc. in the future). Logseq's founder did state that it's designed to be self-hostable, but hasn't released the backend code yet (need to ensure security first), so maybe I should wait before doing that post?

By the way, the founders of both apps are very reactive: might be interesting to drop them a line on Github or Twitter as they might be willing to provide support with the packaging.

---

@jdaviescoates said in Notion-like FOSS app:

I only had a very quick look but it looks like Athens is like Anytype in that it's not actually a server thing at all, no? i.e. I think it's just a desktop app, not a web app, no?

I agree that it is a bit unclear, I'm going off of the fact that the option to self-host features quite heavily in Athens' communication and approach to monetisation, and the founder did discuss hosting on Sandstorm here (though it did prove problematic), but I might have misunderstood.

[jdaviescoates]

@soup said in Notion-like FOSS app:

Can I do one post for Athens and one for Logseq?

Go for it! You don't need permission

[soup]

The Athens post: https://forum.cloudron.io/topic/4717/athens-open-source-and-local-first-alternative-to-roam-research-also-like-notion-obsidian?_=1616151737160

The Logseq post: https://forum.cloudron.io/topic/4718/logseq-privacy-first-open-source-knowledge-sharing-and-management-platform-like-notion-roam-obsidian

[infogulch]

Athens is pretty cool, but it doesn't have an api or any kind of server side component. I tried to package it for cloudron a couple weeks ago ( https://source.infogulch.com/infogulch/athens-app ) before I discovered this. logseq is in the same boat.

See this discussion for input from a contributor: https://github.com/athensresearch/athens/discussions/737

[ctrl]

@infogulch Never had my hands on Trilium Notes. But judging from the screenshots doesn't it offer concepts used in these kind of roaming tools like the Zettelkasten Methode which was heavily used by Niklas Luhmann et al.? Btw. Anytype is on my personal watchlist, too.

@yusf I tried out Notion last year but only for a day or so and abandoned it quickly because of data protection and privacy concerns. My first impression was that it had a very specific characteristic in its appereance and handling. What I really liked about it was that it felt quite calm on the surface hiding and simplificating the complexity of its possibilities. In a way it reminded me of Things.app on macOS.
Yesterday I found Focalboard by Mattermost. I don't know if it fills the gap but at least it promotes itself as an open source, self-hosted alternative to Trello, Notion, and Asana. @thetomester13 created an app request already. ^^

I am also on a long lasting journey on the search for the appropriate toolset that fits my way of thinking. Currently I use multiple tools. Most of the time I start out with a mindmap. Although it is not perfect Mindnode does quite a good job in the fields of mindmapping in regards of UX. It lets me quickly visualize my thoughts and doesn't get into the way too much in that process which helps me to slip into some kind of a flow state. Sometimes I wish we had neural interfaces to project all of these interconnected thought that seem to pop of the ground like mushrooms while surfing through an idea.

The problem with a mindmap is that it is neither interactive after it has been created nor can it be connected or extended by ongoing research in a comfortable/elegant way. Maybe the roaming tools mentioned by @soup could fill that gap. I'll get my hands on these asap. What do you think about Trilium? Does it fit in that kind of category?

[yusf]

Check this out:

Notea

Self hosted note taking app stored on S3. Notea is a privacy-first, open-source note-taking application. It supports Markdown syntax, sharing, responsive and more.

[infogulch]

@yusf Nice find! That looks ready to package up today.

[jdaviescoates]

@jdaviescoates said in Notion-like FOSS app:

I only had a very quick look but it looks like Athens is like Anytype in that it's not actually a server thing at all, no? i.e. I think it's just a desktop app, not a web app, no?

@infogulch said in Notion-like FOSS app:

Athens is pretty cool, but it doesn't have an api or any kind of server side component. I tried to package it for cloudron a couple weeks ago ( https://source.infogulch.com/infogulch/athens-app ) before I discovered this. logseq is in the same boat.

It's now clear that you can also self-host Athens on a server. The Github repo says "You can use Athens as a local desktop app that saves data to your filesystem or with a self-hosted server."

[yusf]

Explicit Notion clone: AppFlowy (AGPL)

[jdaviescoates]

@yusf said in Notion-like FOSS app:

Explicit Notion clone: AppFlowy (AGPL)

Upvote here:

https://forum.cloudron.io/post/39873

[LoudLemur]

@yusf I had only a quick look at notion, but it seems like it helps co-ordinate various functions in a way similar to Odoo (or Flectra, a fork of Odoo), both of which have been requested in the App Wishlist. Flectra was created with the goal of being as Free as possible.

[marcusquinn]

@loudlemur Tried both,, was disappointed that all the good stuff is kept out of the free version and reserved for the cloud hosted version. I suggest EspoCRM is a better faster, easier framework to work with anyway if you're after that sort of thing.

[LoudLemur]

@marcusquinn Thanks, I hadn't heard of EspoCRM:
https://www.espocrm.com/

I think there is a load of great functionality in Odoo Community Edition.

https://flectrahq.com/compare-editions-flectra-vs-odoo?category=--all--&feature=--all--&odoo-ce=--all--&odoo-ee=Y&fle-ce=--all--&fle-pe=--all--

[marcusquinn]

@loudlemur There is, but you will have to learn Python to do any useful customisations. The Odoo Studio, which is the most useful thing, is only available on the Cloud edition. There's so much missing from Flectra, I don't know why anyone would.

[yusf]

I just got into the Anytype alpha program. The hype is true. No selfhosting involved however (relies on IPFS).

[marcusquinn]

@yusf IPFS is the future!