So Many Problems
-
Cloudron is a clever idea, failing extensively in implementation.
CL does install things correctly. that is good.?
Cloudron itself has many UI problems and functional problems.
During setup the switch from Cloudron.IO (the "business" site) to Cloudron Server Portal is not clear. Each requires its own password though the login pages for both are indentical.
Suggestion: Simply make the login pages distinct with titles like: Cloudron Portal (the business site--pick anything you want) and Cloudron Server App Console.
The email setup is quite complex and unreliable. Required 2.5 hours to get everything working. Even though I had given Cloudron a correct Cloudflare API token with correct settings, Cloudron created all of the appropriate DNS records EXCEPT the needed MX record.
Cloudron email setup IS ESSENTIAL. Critical password changes can only be made via a change request email being sent. But, Catch-22: this can only be done with a correct setup. External SMTP did not work because the settings fields are incomplete or in accurate. Never did work. Don't blame Digital Ocean: I requested and obtained an exemption and 25, 587, etc were unblocked. I know this to be true because email sent by OnlyOffice worked through port 587.
Then I setup the internal server. Required PTR address and clearing blockage at xxxxHaus Zen. These are just requirements so not on Cloudron. But, the detection of the PTR record went on and off after being set. The real problem is that the outbound email is 1) different than NextCloud's outbound email, which is more reliable to set up; 2) it is essential for password changes so absolutely not optional. Instead of being documented (and the doc is voluminous and accurate)...
...Suggestion: build outgoing email setup into the workflow of the initial setup. Make it something that can be skipped. have a better standalone setup for outgoing email (from the Cloudron Server Management console, not from applications) for those who may choose to defer it.
Another substantial confusion is the App Store accessible from Cloudron.io is basically a NOOP: it is non functional. clicking install does nothing. it is marketing. OK to do marketing--but point people to the proper creation of the managed server and the Cloudron server console--that's the only place where the market place works to install apps.
Note: what I am referring to as Cloudron Server Management console is actually called Cloudron Dashboard: the latter is suitable, just needs to be distinguished from Cloudron.io--the business and marketing site.
Suggestion: while the complexity of various apps is on the developer of those apps, Cloudron purports to simplify those deployments. So, you have chosen to "wade in" to those complexities. Nextcloud requires sequential installs. You install the "backend" Nextcloud before you can install specific apps (not accessible from within Nextcloud itself) such as Collabora or OnlyOffice. Well, I'd call Nextcloud a "frontend" because it is the starting point and wrap around UI. I'd call Collabora a "backend". But, whatever--since you choose to support and simplify these deployments you really can't pass off the problems of the apps to the app vendors, like any commodity host does. You have chosen to step in as the "hero" to make it just work.
Suggestion: rather than the App Store just launching a setup, you should really launch a workflow of your own design to lead people through the essential steps. It's part of your value add.
Call these minor quibbles, but these are "speed bumps" that the new user encounters. By definition, almost everyone coming to Cloudron is a new user--or a new user after the bash scripts failed... So, it's important to create a great, not confusing and almost adequate, initial experience.
You really aren't there yet and it's a bit hard to recommend Cloudron. This is too bad because it works. While 2.5 hours of frustration is too much, it IS less than true self-hosting often turns out to be. The dashboard could also be more robust.
-
Hello @lewisl
@lewisl said in So Many Problems:
Cloudron itself has many UI problems and functional problems.
Cloudron 9 brings a full new UI. I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on that.
@lewisl said in So Many Problems:
During setup the switch from Cloudron.IO (the "business" site) to Cloudron Server Portal is not clear. Each requires its own password though the login pages for both are indentical.
Suggestion: Simply make the login pages distinct with titles like: Cloudron Portal (the business site--pick anything you want) and Cloudron Server App Console.
This is a good suggestion.
@lewisl said in So Many Problems:
The email setup is quite complex and unreliable. Required 2.5 hours to get everything working. Even though I had given Cloudron a correct Cloudflare API token with correct settings, Cloudron created all of the appropriate DNS records EXCEPT the needed MX record.
This is rather unusual. Did you have an existing MX record?
Since by default, Cloudron does not simply overwrite your DNS records if they are existent.
When existent DNS records are found for e.g. apps, the user will get a notification informing that if they like to overwrite this record.
This should also be added to the Mail setup records.
Good catch.
@lewisl said in So Many Problems:
Cloudron email setup IS ESSENTIAL. Critical password changes can only be made via a change request email being sent. But, Catch-22: this can only be done with a correct setup. External SMTP did not work because the settings fields are incomplete or in accurate. Never did work. Don't blame Digital Ocean: I requested and obtained an exemption and 25, 587, etc were unblocked. I know this to be true because email sent by OnlyOffice worked through port 587.
The "user 0" can always be accessed without any mail setup needed, even if the password is lost.
When you ssh into your server and run the following command, a temporary password for the "user 0" will bet set and valid for exactly one use:cloudron-support --owner-login
@lewisl said in So Many Problems:
...Suggestion: build outgoing email setup into the workflow of the initial setup. Make it something that can be skipped. have a better standalone setup for outgoing email (from the Cloudron Server Management console, not from applications) for those who may choose to defer it.
This might be a good idea.
Maybe like a "Cloudron Tour" that guides the user what he should setup, where he can find xyz.
@lewisl said in So Many Problems:
Another substantial confusion is the App Store accessible from Cloudron.io is basically a NOOP: it is non functional. clicking install does nothing. it is marketing. OK to do marketing--but point people to the proper creation of the managed server and the Cloudron server console--that's the only place where the market place works to install apps.
I don't really understand this point.
The https://www.cloudron.io/store/index.html does what it should do.
Display all available apps and when you click one and install, you get the marketing message.
Could you please elaborate?
@lewisl said in So Many Problems:
Suggestion: rather than the App Store just launching a setup, you should really launch a workflow of your own design to lead people through the essential steps. It's part of your value add.
Like a guided step by step for each app what to do and configure in each app?
@lewisl said in So Many Problems:
The dashboard could also be more robust.
In what sense? Could you please explain this a bit more?
-
Cloudron is a clever idea, failing extensively in implementation.
CL does install things correctly. that is good.?
Cloudron itself has many UI problems and functional problems.
During setup the switch from Cloudron.IO (the "business" site) to Cloudron Server Portal is not clear. Each requires its own password though the login pages for both are indentical.
Suggestion: Simply make the login pages distinct with titles like: Cloudron Portal (the business site--pick anything you want) and Cloudron Server App Console.
The email setup is quite complex and unreliable. Required 2.5 hours to get everything working. Even though I had given Cloudron a correct Cloudflare API token with correct settings, Cloudron created all of the appropriate DNS records EXCEPT the needed MX record.
Cloudron email setup IS ESSENTIAL. Critical password changes can only be made via a change request email being sent. But, Catch-22: this can only be done with a correct setup. External SMTP did not work because the settings fields are incomplete or in accurate. Never did work. Don't blame Digital Ocean: I requested and obtained an exemption and 25, 587, etc were unblocked. I know this to be true because email sent by OnlyOffice worked through port 587.
Then I setup the internal server. Required PTR address and clearing blockage at xxxxHaus Zen. These are just requirements so not on Cloudron. But, the detection of the PTR record went on and off after being set. The real problem is that the outbound email is 1) different than NextCloud's outbound email, which is more reliable to set up; 2) it is essential for password changes so absolutely not optional. Instead of being documented (and the doc is voluminous and accurate)...
...Suggestion: build outgoing email setup into the workflow of the initial setup. Make it something that can be skipped. have a better standalone setup for outgoing email (from the Cloudron Server Management console, not from applications) for those who may choose to defer it.
Another substantial confusion is the App Store accessible from Cloudron.io is basically a NOOP: it is non functional. clicking install does nothing. it is marketing. OK to do marketing--but point people to the proper creation of the managed server and the Cloudron server console--that's the only place where the market place works to install apps.
Note: what I am referring to as Cloudron Server Management console is actually called Cloudron Dashboard: the latter is suitable, just needs to be distinguished from Cloudron.io--the business and marketing site.
Suggestion: while the complexity of various apps is on the developer of those apps, Cloudron purports to simplify those deployments. So, you have chosen to "wade in" to those complexities. Nextcloud requires sequential installs. You install the "backend" Nextcloud before you can install specific apps (not accessible from within Nextcloud itself) such as Collabora or OnlyOffice. Well, I'd call Nextcloud a "frontend" because it is the starting point and wrap around UI. I'd call Collabora a "backend". But, whatever--since you choose to support and simplify these deployments you really can't pass off the problems of the apps to the app vendors, like any commodity host does. You have chosen to step in as the "hero" to make it just work.
Suggestion: rather than the App Store just launching a setup, you should really launch a workflow of your own design to lead people through the essential steps. It's part of your value add.
Call these minor quibbles, but these are "speed bumps" that the new user encounters. By definition, almost everyone coming to Cloudron is a new user--or a new user after the bash scripts failed... So, it's important to create a great, not confusing and almost adequate, initial experience.
You really aren't there yet and it's a bit hard to recommend Cloudron. This is too bad because it works. While 2.5 hours of frustration is too much, it IS less than true self-hosting often turns out to be. The dashboard could also be more robust.
@lewisl Thanks for your feedback!
@lewisl said in So Many Problems:
During setup the switch from Cloudron.IO (the "business" site) to Cloudron Server Portal is not clear. Each requires its own password though the login pages for both are indentical.
In the upcoming version, we have removed the ability to create an account from the server dashboard. Hopefully, this clarifies there are two separate accounts - one is local to your server and another on cloudron.io .
The email setup is quite complex and unreliable
Did I understand correctly that you are using the email address that you are hosting on Cloudron as the cloudron.io account email?
-
Cloudron is a clever idea, failing extensively in implementation.
CL does install things correctly. that is good.?
Cloudron itself has many UI problems and functional problems.
During setup the switch from Cloudron.IO (the "business" site) to Cloudron Server Portal is not clear. Each requires its own password though the login pages for both are indentical.
Suggestion: Simply make the login pages distinct with titles like: Cloudron Portal (the business site--pick anything you want) and Cloudron Server App Console.
The email setup is quite complex and unreliable. Required 2.5 hours to get everything working. Even though I had given Cloudron a correct Cloudflare API token with correct settings, Cloudron created all of the appropriate DNS records EXCEPT the needed MX record.
Cloudron email setup IS ESSENTIAL. Critical password changes can only be made via a change request email being sent. But, Catch-22: this can only be done with a correct setup. External SMTP did not work because the settings fields are incomplete or in accurate. Never did work. Don't blame Digital Ocean: I requested and obtained an exemption and 25, 587, etc were unblocked. I know this to be true because email sent by OnlyOffice worked through port 587.
Then I setup the internal server. Required PTR address and clearing blockage at xxxxHaus Zen. These are just requirements so not on Cloudron. But, the detection of the PTR record went on and off after being set. The real problem is that the outbound email is 1) different than NextCloud's outbound email, which is more reliable to set up; 2) it is essential for password changes so absolutely not optional. Instead of being documented (and the doc is voluminous and accurate)...
...Suggestion: build outgoing email setup into the workflow of the initial setup. Make it something that can be skipped. have a better standalone setup for outgoing email (from the Cloudron Server Management console, not from applications) for those who may choose to defer it.
Another substantial confusion is the App Store accessible from Cloudron.io is basically a NOOP: it is non functional. clicking install does nothing. it is marketing. OK to do marketing--but point people to the proper creation of the managed server and the Cloudron server console--that's the only place where the market place works to install apps.
Note: what I am referring to as Cloudron Server Management console is actually called Cloudron Dashboard: the latter is suitable, just needs to be distinguished from Cloudron.io--the business and marketing site.
Suggestion: while the complexity of various apps is on the developer of those apps, Cloudron purports to simplify those deployments. So, you have chosen to "wade in" to those complexities. Nextcloud requires sequential installs. You install the "backend" Nextcloud before you can install specific apps (not accessible from within Nextcloud itself) such as Collabora or OnlyOffice. Well, I'd call Nextcloud a "frontend" because it is the starting point and wrap around UI. I'd call Collabora a "backend". But, whatever--since you choose to support and simplify these deployments you really can't pass off the problems of the apps to the app vendors, like any commodity host does. You have chosen to step in as the "hero" to make it just work.
Suggestion: rather than the App Store just launching a setup, you should really launch a workflow of your own design to lead people through the essential steps. It's part of your value add.
Call these minor quibbles, but these are "speed bumps" that the new user encounters. By definition, almost everyone coming to Cloudron is a new user--or a new user after the bash scripts failed... So, it's important to create a great, not confusing and almost adequate, initial experience.
You really aren't there yet and it's a bit hard to recommend Cloudron. This is too bad because it works. While 2.5 hours of frustration is too much, it IS less than true self-hosting often turns out to be. The dashboard could also be more robust.
@lewisl said in So Many Problems:
Cloudron is a clever idea, failing extensively in implementation.
Totally get that this is your personal experience, and I'm sorry for it.
However I can't let such a comment go unchallenged.
Please accept that it is your experience and not a widely accepted fact or even just widely accepted point of view.
I get you're pissed off, but the simple fact that you got a polite constructive response shows Cloudron is not as you seem to think it is.
-
I also feel this is very much an unwarranted, extremely subjective opinion, and the statement "Cloudron is a clever idea, failing extensively in implementation" an inappropriate generalisation. If it really were failing to this extent, I am very sure we would see a lot more threads here with similar issues.
Of course Cloudron isn't perfect. If somebody feels Cloudron isn't suitable for a person's needs or it doesn't fit their expectations, that is of course perfectly fine. There are other options available. However (and this is of course just my opinion), don't register with a forum and then post as a first topic with the subject "so many problems" a list things which you personally don't like about a product or service and package them as a list of issues that need to be fixed as a matter of urgency.
Credit to @james and @girish for replying so professionally. Let's hope @lewisl has the decency to acknowledge this.
-
I also feel this is very much an unwarranted, extremely subjective opinion, and the statement "Cloudron is a clever idea, failing extensively in implementation" an inappropriate generalisation. If it really were failing to this extent, I am very sure we would see a lot more threads here with similar issues.
Of course Cloudron isn't perfect. If somebody feels Cloudron isn't suitable for a person's needs or it doesn't fit their expectations, that is of course perfectly fine. There are other options available. However (and this is of course just my opinion), don't register with a forum and then post as a first topic with the subject "so many problems" a list things which you personally don't like about a product or service and package them as a list of issues that need to be fixed as a matter of urgency.
Credit to @james and @girish for replying so professionally. Let's hope @lewisl has the decency to acknowledge this.
-
… says the person who chose the title „So Many Problems“ as his introduction. People tend to mirror your tone.
And @james gave some hints to issues that might have existed on your end… did you check that?
-
@lewisl Nobody here is likely to be hurt by your comments. Of course things can be improved, and nobody is denying that, but maybe a subject line with something like "suggestions for improvement" would have been more appropriate. Some of the "so many problems" you mention are just your opinion and refer to issues you yourself had (and can probably fix with the suggestions) or ideas. Perhaps something to think about when giving feedback in future. You might then get a different reaction from other users.
