Focus on Business Apps
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@plusone-nick said in Focus on Business Apps:
imo the main issue in regards to new apps is the developer experience/on-boarding
Cloudron has had their own "standardized" method for packaging apps for many years now and have basically failed in facilitating a thriving marketplace for Open Source and new custom apps. Way before Supabase, Coolify and others "We"/Cloudron have had: Server/Runtime, Auth, DBs, Backups, DNS & so on readily available with absolutely no streamlined method to build an app using Add-On pieces and simply launch it.
...And don't get me started with the fact that we still don't have a single "no code/low code" APP/PAGE builder! No lie it makes me lose sleep at night...We can design a UI with Penpot, build databases with several options, build workflows with n8n, do AI stuff with Typebot/Open WebUI but I only have fucking wordpress to build a page!? (excuse my french & no offense WP but really!? it's basically 2025!!)
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I know, I know before anyone says it! Sounds like a "skill issue" this is all just linux, docker and open standards, languages, protocols so you should know all of this already, its ASSumed that you do...and this is where the problem/current attitude toward "new apps" derives and resides.
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Don't mistake my passion for hate or anger
TLDR:
- App/Page Builder
- Better Docs/Dev Onboarding
- Compose & Swarm Implementation/Unified Dashboard
I pray this does not continue to fall on deaf ears...Especially since I am willing and able to contribute...
Everyone is here for a mutually beneficial relationship, let's keep that the focus or part ways amicably.For points 1 and 2, I totally feel you. Anyway there is some hope and I want to share my experience below.
as an experienced developer and devops person, I have to admit it requires some skillset/experience and patience in order to be able to make the effort to package an app. As a busy parent, I had cooked a simple python app, very minimal, and packaged it for alpine, to boost my productivity. Then I wanted to host it on my Cloudron and it was not so easy to make it work, due to permissions issues, various errors (exec format etc), failed healthcheck... Despite having a working Dockerfile and docker-compose.yml in local, it took me 2 weeks of spare time to adapt my app for Cloudron. Mostly because my spare time is very limited and my knowledge of Cloudron packaging is limited too, and also I had a goal to only use ChatGPT.
The base Cloudron image is mostly ubuntu based while I wanted to keep alpine as a base image, and despite this difference I could manage to yet install my app on my Cloudron instance while still keeping it minimal
It took me a few ChatGPT prompts + a few evenings to go over all the issues I faced, yet I succeed! I believe the DevEx is quite horrible at this time, but with patience and help from ChatGPT
, and good documentation I'm convinced I could tackle any such challenge as long as the effort is realistic and the app is worth it. The more we cook app, the easier it becomes, and the funnier it is.I will try to share a bit about this effort soon
, so at least people can benefit from the learning. What is interesting, when building your own app, with a minimal setup, is that it is possible to avoid to rely too much on Cloudron "magic" as I don't care at all about the base image, etc.I had to admit that the information I needed to aggregate for the initial prompt to ChatGPT was huge and sourced from many different parts (docs, git...) and is not an effort everyone is willing to take, so it is worth cooking some ChatGPT app for this I believe.
Anyway the good news is that it is possible to have sort of a recipe to repeat this success, i.e by feeding ChatGPT with examples of Cloudron/Dockerfile/start.sh of similar apps; i.e apps made with similar tech stack; + relevant excerpts from the documentation about packaging apps for Cloudron and Cloudron requirements. And in total it took maybe a few hours of prompting to ChatGPT and git/docker push/cloudron install/update to make the whole thing work.
I hope to build maybe one or two more apps for Cloudron, for my own needs, this time I'll focus on apps I didn't build myself like maybe soulseek and others. Maybe in the end I'll have a good tutorial to help people contribute to Cloudron with sensible apps.
@SansGuidon good stuff i agree with the approach and sentiment
have you tried bolt.new or any other code assistant that can better generate? I know chatgpt recently added that canvas...but being able to have the ai be aware of the whole project context is right around the corner making this 10x easier. bolt.new has their OS version bolt.diy and can interface with all the usual llms, check it out if you haven't
This whole situation has basically forced me to be a better admin and learn to be a dev so cant really complain, just advocating for more facilitation✌💙+1
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@SansGuidon good stuff i agree with the approach and sentiment
have you tried bolt.new or any other code assistant that can better generate? I know chatgpt recently added that canvas...but being able to have the ai be aware of the whole project context is right around the corner making this 10x easier. bolt.new has their OS version bolt.diy and can interface with all the usual llms, check it out if you haven't
This whole situation has basically forced me to be a better admin and learn to be a dev so cant really complain, just advocating for more facilitation@plusone-nick Thanks for the tip on https://bolt.diy
I just built a game I've been wanting to build for the last 15 years using AI dev tools in an afternoon.
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@plusone-nick Thanks for the tip on https://bolt.diy
I just built a game I've been wanting to build for the last 15 years using AI dev tools in an afternoon.
@robi said in Focus on Business Apps:
@plusone-nick Thanks for the tip on https://bolt.diy
I just built a game I've been wanting to build for the last 15 years using AI dev tools in an afternoon.
What's the game?
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@robi said in Focus on Business Apps:
@plusone-nick Thanks for the tip on https://bolt.diy
I just built a game I've been wanting to build for the last 15 years using AI dev tools in an afternoon.
What's the game?
@jdaviescoates thanks for asking.. it's called Petals Around the Rose.
It's a great puzzle game one can play solo or with a large group of people with just a handful of dice.
The innovation for my idea is the novel input method, instead of a separate text box and a button with modals that just distract from the game. It flows nicely with my design. Keyboard shortcuts too!
Do not to cheat for an achievement prize..
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Hi, I also wish for more business apps. The initial post is right in my opinion. Sooner or later I'll need e.g. RustDesk. I created a post on the wishlist. Others created additional posts for it. If it's not available by the time I cannot wait anymore I will have to look for an alternative.
Like this one:
https://elest.io/open-source/rustdeskserver
https://elest.io/bring-your-own-vmI really don't fancy moving all my installed apps. But I would start with one. Then another one. Over the course of two three years my Cloudron would be different. Most likely I wouldn't leave Cloudron alltogether, because then Cloudron has an app that others in turn don't provide, but if the dynamic is somewhere else then I don't think that's a good thing for Cloudron, no?
I don't know anything about the economics of running a hosting platform like Cloudron. Maybe you need additional employees should you decide to offer business apps and maybe that isn't sth. you want. Also I don't know how others are doing it, e.g. elest.io. Maybe they have these additional costs and maybe the platform turns out to be much more expensive in the end. I don't know. But I know there's a gap between what Cloudron currently is and what some (or many) users want/need.
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I managed to install Bolt.diy in LAMP after getting pnpm installed, however it's clear OpenWebUI is more robust.
It also doesn't have any of the run/browse features of Bolt.new, so you'll enjoy Cursor/Windsurf/We0/v0/etc more than this.
It was a nice experiment.
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I managed to install Bolt.diy in LAMP after getting pnpm installed, however it's clear OpenWebUI is more robust.
It also doesn't have any of the run/browse features of Bolt.new, so you'll enjoy Cursor/Windsurf/We0/v0/etc more than this.
It was a nice experiment.
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Hi, I also wish for more business apps. The initial post is right in my opinion. Sooner or later I'll need e.g. RustDesk. I created a post on the wishlist. Others created additional posts for it. If it's not available by the time I cannot wait anymore I will have to look for an alternative.
Like this one:
https://elest.io/open-source/rustdeskserver
https://elest.io/bring-your-own-vmI really don't fancy moving all my installed apps. But I would start with one. Then another one. Over the course of two three years my Cloudron would be different. Most likely I wouldn't leave Cloudron alltogether, because then Cloudron has an app that others in turn don't provide, but if the dynamic is somewhere else then I don't think that's a good thing for Cloudron, no?
I don't know anything about the economics of running a hosting platform like Cloudron. Maybe you need additional employees should you decide to offer business apps and maybe that isn't sth. you want. Also I don't know how others are doing it, e.g. elest.io. Maybe they have these additional costs and maybe the platform turns out to be much more expensive in the end. I don't know. But I know there's a gap between what Cloudron currently is and what some (or many) users want/need.
@stbg said in Focus on Business Apps:
Like this one:
This is ridiculous. The lowest elest plan offers just 1GB ram, 20GB storage, and 1 core, PLUS just one app. If you bring your own VM, there are limitations - "To be eligible the VM you connect must have no more than 2vCPU, max 4GB RAM and max 80GB disk." Why? So that you HAVE to go through their Dashboard, where RustDeskServer, by default, costs at least USD 15/month (in Europe, it's 5 bucks more in NA and Asia), getting you this: 2 CPU, 4 GB RAM, 40 GB Storage (this server, CPX11, cost about USD 4.70/month at Hetzner) you only get the one app, so the app costs just under 11 USD/month. One app for 11 bucks. Cloudron gives you unlimited apps for 16 bucks a month.
You know what app elest doesn't have? Bookwyrm. How dare they. This is an app which I really need. Since they don't have it, they clearly don't care about the inner writer/author in me, and others. So, I am not going to give them my business. (They DO have misskey and btcpay server, but I can set up the latter on my own.)
Elest is reckoned to have 11-50 employees, Cloudron 0-9 (pretty sure it's not zero, though).
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@robi very helpful feedback, thank you
@timconsidine You're welcome. The only thing I really liked was the default dark mode.
Also, I keep coming back to Windsurf since it's more intuitive than Cursor and there is always a no-cost model you can use instead of the pricey credit hungry latest ones.
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@stbg said in Focus on Business Apps:
Like this one:
This is ridiculous. The lowest elest plan offers just 1GB ram, 20GB storage, and 1 core, PLUS just one app. If you bring your own VM, there are limitations - "To be eligible the VM you connect must have no more than 2vCPU, max 4GB RAM and max 80GB disk." Why? So that you HAVE to go through their Dashboard, where RustDeskServer, by default, costs at least USD 15/month (in Europe, it's 5 bucks more in NA and Asia), getting you this: 2 CPU, 4 GB RAM, 40 GB Storage (this server, CPX11, cost about USD 4.70/month at Hetzner) you only get the one app, so the app costs just under 11 USD/month. One app for 11 bucks. Cloudron gives you unlimited apps for 16 bucks a month.
You know what app elest doesn't have? Bookwyrm. How dare they. This is an app which I really need. Since they don't have it, they clearly don't care about the inner writer/author in me, and others. So, I am not going to give them my business. (They DO have misskey and btcpay server, but I can set up the latter on my own.)
Elest is reckoned to have 11-50 employees, Cloudron 0-9 (pretty sure it's not zero, though).
