Cloudron+ZFS?

[infogulch]

There is no solution that I am aware of that can take a exact point in time "snapshot" of an app across 3 different things without stopping the app. In fact, very long time ago, we used to stop apps before backups but people complained loudly. Eventually, we found that it's not really a big issue to take a live backup. It's probably not consistent but most apps seem to deal with it fine.

Live backups are probably how almost all users of the upstream projects take backups (if they take any at all ), including the maintainers, so live backups seem like a reasonable choice from a user-coverage perspective. That also hints that perhaps it's not a big deal that you can't take simultaneous snapshots across multiple volumes; they'll probably be 'more simultaneous' than simply copying files if that's worth anything.

back in the day app data volumes were BTRFS volumes. We faced a lot of instability with BTRFS and ran into issues...

It's very interesting to know that you've already experimented with this approach before. I did search the forum for ZFS but not for BTRFS which in retrospect seems a bit silly on my part. I think it's quite reasonable that you chose a different direction after encountering so many problems trying to integrate with BTRFS. I've heard similar accounts of corruption and operation issues running BTRFS, and fewer accounts of such issues with ZFS, but I don't have personal experience with either so this is just hearsay.

If you had some willing help / test subjects would you consider experimenting with a CoW filesystem like ZFS again? If so, how might you expect that to that look?

[robi]

@girish the stability of ZFS on linux has improved drastically since I first played with it. It's definitely worth trying now.

Also, when you tried BTRFS, it was plagued by all of the immaturity issues, ZFS didn't have at the time.

Now that distros lets you add ZFS volumes by default, it's pretty awesome for all the benefits you get.

[girish]

Yeah, might be worth re-visiting. I think this might also help us in setting per-app data directory size limits. There was another long there elsewhere about how running out of disk space should not bring down the server. I think with having appdata in a volume with specific size (assuming zfs allows us to resize volumes easily etc), then that's a big win! Any idea on how these things perform? As long as it's reasonable, that should be ok. It's not like most apps are very disk i/o heavy.

[robi]

@girish said in Cloudron+ZFS?:

I think this might also help us in setting per-app data directory size limits.

Yes

There was another long there elsewhere about how running out of disk space should not bring down the server. I think with having appdata in a volume with specific size (assuming zfs allows us to resize volumes easily etc), then that's a big win!

Yes it does! From 10 years ago I recall it's only resizing up. Downsize was a lateral move across volumes.

Any idea on how these things perform? As long as it's reasonable, that should be ok. It's not like most apps are very disk i/o heavy.

Yes, it runs better than most any other filesystem because of the efficiency and caching that ZFS does. It can also be further enhanced with their ZIL (intent log) that's kept in RAM. For busy systems that is a godsend.

I was one of the key members of the team actually created the first ZFS system on the planet, stretched across two nodes.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333250276_OCP_Hackathon_2015_N-Way_OpenZFS_Redundancy_and_Horizontal_Scaling_on_Flash_Memory_Switched_Fabrics

[robi]

Here's someone's account of do's and don't with ZFS.

Creating and managing single/dual drive ZFS filesystem on Linux

Do NOT use ZFS in these cases:

you want to use ZFS on single/one external USB drive (worst case, data corruption will happen on non clean dismount, and you would have to recreate whole dataset)
you want to use ZFS on single/one drive and you do not have any external drive for the backup purpose (why? when the zpool is not cleanly dismounted/exported, some data can get corrupted permanently and zfs will have no other mirror drive from which it can automatically get valid data, unless you get secondary drive of same type, size for parity, redundancy)
you do not have hours of your time to learn basics of ZFS management, on this page though are most basic things

Majority of following commands will work on all Linux distributions though first part of the tutorial is using Arch/Manjaro Linux packages and package manager. On Ubuntu i was able to setup ZFS using command "sudo apt install zfsutils-linux". If you have other distribution, you need to discover if your distribution has packages for zfs (and kernel modules).

Upgrade and update system and reboot (in case new kernel was installed since last reboot)

A)
sudo pacman -S linux-latest-zfs
reboot
sudo /sbin/modprobe zfs

if modprobe not works, try "sudo pacman -R linux-latest-zfs" and try method B:

B)
Discover installed kernels:
uname -r
pacman -Q | grep “^linux”

and install zfs packages for these:
sudo pacman -Ss zfs|grep -i linux
sudo pacman -S linux123-zfs
pamac install zfs-dkms
reboot
enable zfs support in kernel (it was not enabled in 5.8.16-2-MANJARO after reboot, but once enabled by following command it persist)

sudo /sbin/modprobe zfs

===================================

Open two pages and search for things and parameters to understand following commands:
https://zfsonlinux.org/manpages/0.8.1/man8/zpool.8.html
https://zfsonlinux.org/manpages/0.8.1/man8/zfs.8.html

sudo smartctl -a /dev/sdb|grep -i "sector size"
Sector Sizes: 512 bytes logical, 4096 bytes physical
(smartctl is in package "smartmontools")

It was suggested here https://forum.proxmox.com/threads/how-can-i-set-the-correct-ashift-on-zfs.58242/post-268384 to use in the following "zpool create" command the parameter ashift=12 for drives with 4096 bytes physical sector size and for 8K physical to use ashift=13. If ashift not defined, then zfs use autodetect where i do not know how good it is.
attempt to create pool named "poolname" on a HDD of choice: (use disk that store no important data or it will be lost + unmount the drive, maybe using gparted)

A) sudo zpool create -o ashift=12 -o feature@async_destroy=enabled -o feature@empty_bpobj=enabled -o feature@lz4_compress=enabled poolname /dev/disk/ID-HERE(ls -l /dev/disk/by-id/)

or the same command only the pool will be created across 2 physical drives (of same size, else pool will not use all the space on bigger drive?) where one will be used for redundancy (recommended to reduce irreversible data corruption risk and double the read/write performance)
B) sudo zpool create -o ashift=12 -o feature@async_destroy=enabled -o feature@empty_bpobj=enabled -o feature@lz4_compress=enabled poolname mirror /dev/disk/DRIVE1-ID-HERE(ls -l /dev/disk/by-id/) /dev/disk/DRIVE2-ID-HERE(ls -l /dev/disk/by-id/)
(for 4 drives mirror, it should be: zpool create poolname mirror drive1id drive2id mirror drive3id drive4id)

Regarding following parameter recordsize, it was suggested on places like this https://blog.programster.org/zfs-record-size and https://jrs-s.net/2019/04/03/on-zfs-recordsize/ and https://www.reddit.com/r/zfs/comments/8l20f5/zfs_record_size_is_smaller_really_better/ that for large media files drive, the block size is better to increase from 128k to 512k. So i did it for my multimedia drive. Though above linked manual page for zfs says this value is only suggested and zfs automatically adjust size per usage patterns. Also is said on mentioned unofficial article that the record size should be similar to a size of the typical storage operation within the dataset which may contradict with the file size itself. "zpool iostat -r" shows the operation sizes distribution/counts, also if zpool is single drive, maybe can be used "sudo iostat -axh 3 /dev/zpooldrivename" and checking the "rareq-sz" (read average request size).

Creating two datasets one encrypted one not:
sudo zfs create -o compression=lz4 -o checksum=skein -o atime=off -o xattr=sa -o encryption=on -o keyformat=passphrase -o mountpoint=/e poolname/enc
sudo zfs create -o compression=lz4 -o checksum=skein -o atime=off -o xattr=sa -o encryption=off -o recordsize=512K -o mountpoint=/d poolname/data

fix permissions:
sudo chown -R $(whoami):$(whoami) /poolname /e /d

gracefully unmount the pools (i think necessary or poor will be marked as suspended and compute restart needed):
sudo zpool export -a

mount the pools:
sudo zpool import -a
(if it fails, you have to mount manually, list disk names (ls -l /dev/disk/by-id/), then: sudo zpool import -a -d /dev/disk/by-id/yourdisk1name-part1 -d /dev/disk/by-id/yourdisk2name-part1 )

If some pool is encrypted, then additional command needed (-l parameter to enter passphrase, else it complains "encryption key not loaded"):
sudo zfs mount -a -l

pool activity statistics:
zpool iostat -vlq
zpool iostat -r (request size histograms)
zpool iostat -w (wait/latency histograms)

intent log statistics:
cat /proc/spl/kstat/zfs/zil

change mountpoint of some dataset within the pool:
sudo mkdir /new;sudo zfs set mountpoint=/new poolname/datasetname

rename/move dataset (error "cannot destroy filesystem has children"):
sudo zfs rename poolname/dataset/subdataset poolname/subdatasetnew

attach new drive (if the existing one is non-redundant single drive, result will be mirror (something like RAID1, with enhanced read/write and 1 drive fault tollerance, data self healing), if existing is part of mirror, it will be three way mirror:
zpool attach poolname existingdrive newdrive

Detach, remove, replace, see manual page (man zpool) or https://zfsonlinux.org/manpages/0.8.1/man8/zpool.8.html

create snapshot:
zfs snapshot -r poolname@snapshot1

destroy (delete) all snapshots (no prompt):
sudo zfs list -H -o name -t snapshot -r POOLNAME|sudo xargs -n1 zfs destroy

destroy (delete) dataset (no prompt):
sudo zfs destroy poolname/enc

destroy (delete) whole pool (no prompt):
sudo zpool destroy poolname

========
If you are OK with the HDD activity to increase at times regular activity is no/low, then consider enabling automatic scrubbing (kind of runtime "fsck" that checks files and even can repair files on replicated devices (mirror/raidz)). Following sets the monthly task:

su;echo -e "[Unit]\nDescription=Monthly zpool scrub on %i\n\n[Timer]\nOnCalendar=monthly\nAccuracySec=1h\nPersistent=true\n\n[Install]\nWantedBy=multi-user.target" > /etc/systemd/system/zfs-scrub@.timer

echo -e "[Unit]\nDescription=zpool scrub on %i\n\n[Service]\nNice=19\nIOSchedulingClass=idle\nKillSignal=SIGINT\nExecStart=/usr/bin/zpool scrub %i\n\n[Install]\nWantedBy=multi-user.target" > /etc/systemd/system/zfs-scrub@.service;exit

systemctl enable zfs-scrub@YOURPOOLNAMEHERE.timer

========
Another page worth reading: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/ZFS

Terminology:
ZIL - ZFS intent log is allocated from blocks within the main pool. However, it might be possible to get better sequential write performance using separate intent log devices (SLOG) such as NVRAM.
SLOG - It's just a really fast place/device to store the ZIL (Zfs Intent Log). Most systems do not write anything close to 4GB to ZIL. (cat /proc/spl/kstat/zfs/zil). ZFS will not benefit from more SLOG storage than the maximum ARC size. That is half of system memory on Linux by default. SLOG device can only increase throughput and decrease latency in a workload with many sync writes.

ARC - Adaptive Replacement Cache is the ZFS read cache in the main memory (DRAM).

L2ARC - Second Level Adaptive Replacement Cache is used to store read cache data outside of the main memory. ... use read-optimized SSDs (no need to mirror/fault tolerance)

Cache - These devices (typically a SSD) are managed by L2ARC to provide an additional layer of caching between main memory and disk. For read-heavy workloads, where the working set size is much larger than what can be cached in main memory, using cache devices allow much more of this working set to be served from low latency media. Using cache devices provides the greatest performance improvement for random read-workloads of mostly static content. (zpool add POOLNAME cache DEVICENAME)

Interesting utilities:
ZREP is a ZFS based replication and failover script https://github.com/bolthole/zrep
Syncoid facilitates the asynchronous incremental replication of ZFS filesystems https://github.com/jimsalterjrs/sanoid#syncoid

========
ZFS zpool file statistics (file size, number of files):
/decko/
a) zpool iostat -r;zpool iostat -w
b)
[code]find /decko/ -type f -print0 | xargs -0 ls -l | awk '{ n=int(log($5)/log(2)); if (n<10) { n=10; } size[n]++ } END { for (i in size) printf("%d %d\n", 2^i, size[i]) }' | sort -n | awk 'function human(x) { x[1]/=1024; if (x[1]>=1024) { x[2]++; human(x) } } { a[1]=$1; a[2]=0; human(a); printf("%3d%s: %6d\n", a[1],substr("kMGTEPYZ",a[2]+1,1),$2) }'

1k: 8102
2k: 2938
4k: 2169
8k: 2102
16k: 2311
32k: 2986
64k: 2533
128k: 2164
256k: 2146
512k: 1692
1M: 2284
2M: 4512
4M: 7483
8M: 7890
16M: 4184
32M: 1911
64M: 484
128M: 1461
256M: 4911
512M: 2344
1G: 578
2G: 113
4G: 13
8G: 11
16G: 2[/code]

/ecko/ZN:
[code]find /ecko/ZN/ -type f -print0 2>/dev/null| xargs -0 ls -l 2>/dev/null| awk '{ n=int(log($5)/log(2)); if (n<10) { n=10; } size[n]++ } END { for (i in size) printf("%d %d\n", 2^i, size[i]) }' | sort -n | awk 'function human(x) { x[1]/=1024; if (x[1]>=1024) { x[2]++; human(x) } } { a[1]=$1; a[2]=0; human(a); printf("%3d%s: %6d\n", a[1],substr("kMGTEPYZ",a[2]+1,1),$2) }'

1k: 403007
2k: 33644
4k: 48356
8k: 155711
16k: 62305
32k: 52709
64k: 47308
128k: 44223
256k: 35698
512k: 32049
1M: 34376
2M: 22291
4M: 38327
8M: 8134
16M: 2448
32M: 1346
64M: 1948
128M: 1438
256M: 379
512M: 276
1G: 124
2G: 3[/code]

[LoudLemur]

@infogulch Ubuntu offers ZFS as an experimental option during installation on the Focal Fossa 20.04 LTS release. If you e.g. setup a Virtual Machine with ZFS, and try and install Cloudron, you receive the following error message:

Error: Cloudron requires '/' to be ext4

I suppose the same thing will happen if you chose btrfs for the file system.

[robi]

@LoudLemur removing this restriction would be useful.

[girish]

@LoudLemur We use the overlay2 device driver in Docker. In the past, this device driver did not support btrfs atleast. See https://git.cloudron.io/cloudron/box/-/issues/364 . You can remove the check in the cloudron-setup script and see what happens.

[infogulch]

There is a zfs storage driver that I think is relevant here: https://docs.docker.com/storage/storagedriver/zfs-driver/

[3246]

Thanks for this interesting discussion. I am struggling with backup due to the volume (350/400GB) and wonder if having ZFS+snapshots would be better (faster, easier and more reliable) than Cloudron's way (tar or rsync)?

The new box is a Hetzner dedi with 2x 3TB and a 512GB NVMe. Instead of sRAID1 I am now pondering ZFS mirror with daily snapshots send to the Storagebox and perhaps part of the NVMe as a ZIL log.

I am keen to hear any thoughts and experience you may have folks

[robi]

@3246 that would auto dedupe at a file level, but the main issue is that backups would make it worse due to the tar and compression. Uncompressed you'd save way more space as most files would not change much.

That's why newer tech storage appliances tend to dedupe at a multiple of 4k bytes to be able to dedupe even more regardless of file type or compression type.

Otherwise one could play with storing rapidly or increasingly changing data differently than more static app data, which is exactly that Cloudron does, separating the two.

[necrevistonnezr]

@3246 I have a similar amount of data - pointing Cloudron‘s backup to a local drive via rsync and then pushing this snapshot via restic (and rclone) to Onedrive (via cron) works great. It’s encrypted, de-duped and mountable. Backup results are sent via email. If that’s interesting, i could share my setup.

[robi]

@necrevistonnezr Please do.

[necrevistonnezr]

@robi
I use

Tools

• rclone: https://rclone.org/docs/
• restic: https://restic.readthedocs.io/en/stable/030_preparing_a_new_repo.html#other-services-via-rclone
• ssmtp: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/SSMTP

Installation

• Install tools above via apt
• afterwards update to latest version (repo versions are old): sudo restic self-update && sudo rclone selfupdate

Setup rclone

• Enter an interactive setup process via rclone config
• in my case I use Onedrive as it has 1TB of space coming with my Office 365 subscription
• for the rest of this summary, we assume you gave it the repository name "REPOSITORY"
• details at https://rclone.org/commands/rclone_config/

Setup restic

• set up a backup repository restic -r rclone:REPOSITORY init
• for a subfolder on onedrive just use restic -r rclone:REPOSITORY:subfolder init
• save password that you gave the repository in file /home/USER/resticpw
• details at https://restic.readthedocs.io/en/latest/030_preparing_a_new_repo.html#other-services-via-rclone

Setup SSMTP

• for receiving backup results, otherwise not needed
• See https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/SSMTP

Cloudron Backup settings

• Provider: mountpoint
• Location: /media/CloudronBackup (<-- obviously adjust to your settings)
• this creates a snapshot at /media/CloudronBackup/snapshot for the current backup
• Storage Format: rsync
• Adjust schedule and retention to your liking

Backup, Prune and Check scripts

restic-cron-backup.sh

#!/bin/bash
d=$(date +%Y-%m-%d)
if pidof -o %PPID -x “$0”; then
echo “$(date “+%d.%m.%Y %T”) Exit, already running.”
exit 1
fi
restic -r rclone:REPOSITORY:subfolder backup /media/CloudronBackup/snapshot -p=/home/USER/resticpw
restic -r rclone:REPOSITORY:subfolder forget --keep-monthly 12 --keep-weekly 5 --keep-daily 14 -p=/home/USER/resticpw
restic -r rclone:REPOSITORY:subfolder check --read-data-subset=2% -p=/home/USER/resticpw
exit

First line does the backup (incremental, encrypted), second line is the backup retention, third line checks a random 2 % of all data for errors

restic-cron-prune.sh

#!/bin/bash
d=$(date +%Y-%m-%d)
if pidof -o %PPID -x “$0”; then
echo “$(date “+%d.%m.%Y %T”) Exit, already running.”
exit 1
fi
restic -r rclone:REPOSITORY:subfolder prune -p=/home/USER/resticpw
exit

removes unused data from the repository, I run this once a week

restic-cron-check.sh

#!/bin/bash
d=$(date +%Y-%m-%d)
if pidof -o %PPID -x “$0”; then
echo “$(date “+%d.%m.%Y %T”) Exit, already running.”
exit 1
fi
restic -r rclone:REPOSITORY:subfolder check --read-data -p=/home/USER/resticpw
exit

checks all data for errors, I run this once a week

Crontab

30 2 * * * sh /home/USER/restic-cron-backup.sh | mailx -s "Restic Backup Results" server@mydomain.com
1 5 1 * * sh /home/USER/restic-cron-prune.sh | mailx -s "Restic Prune Results" server@mydomain.com
1 8 1 * * sh /home/USER/restic-cron-check.sh | mailx -s "Restic Full Check Results" server@mydomain.com

Backup daily at 2:30, prune and check once a week. Receive results to specified mail

Mount backups

Just to be complete: You can mount restic backups locally like
restic -r rclone:REPOSITORY:subfolder mount /media/resticmount/ -p=/home/USER/resticpw && cd /media/resticmount
obviously adjust /media/resticmount/to your settings; allows you to browse and copy from full snapshots for each backup

[robi]

@necrevistonnezr beautiful

Funny how you have to prune cuz it forgets.

[necrevistonnezr]

@robi said in Cloudron+ZFS?:

Funny how you have to prune cuz it forgets.

[3246]

@necrevistonnezr amazing! Thank you for sharing

I am pondering a similar approach and currently back up to a secondary internal drive via rsync without encryption, although the backup drive is using LUKS.

I wonder if using rclone crypt instead of encrypting the files via restic would gain any advantages (e.g. maximum file / folder names, depth, speed)?

Cloudron > rsync to local drive > rclone/crypt via restic > remote

[3246]

Just reading up on restic and encryption, etc and may just skip the rclone part as I am looking to either go to Wasabi or Hetzner Storagebox.

However, I kinda like the crypt part and am looking for any comparisons between rclone/crypt with restic and restic w/ encryption in terms of time it takes to backup and any drawbacks.

[necrevistonnezr]

@3246 said in Cloudron+ZFS?:

Just reading up on restic and encryption, etc and may just skip the rclone part as I am looking to either go to Wasabi or Hetzner Storagebox.

However, I kinda like the crypt part and am looking for any comparisons between rclone/crypt with restic and restic w/ encryption in terms of time it takes to backup and any drawbacks.

Just to be clear: The encryption (as well as deduplication, the repository, data integrity checks, etc.) is completely handled by restic. rclone is just the "transporter tool" that copies data to providers that the restic does not handle (restic out-of-the-box currently handles SFTP, REST-Server, Minio, Wasabi, etc. see https://restic.readthedocs.io/en/stable/030_preparing_a_new_repo.html).

[3246]

@necrevistonnezr thank you. Is the encryption always part of restic or optional? It looks like it's baked-in the way repos are build, right?