Changes to WordPress apps

[Lonkle]

@girish No no, not an install time flag. You can convert at any time from single-site to multisite. But there's no converting back once you're on multisite.

I only mentioned that you might want to do it during install time because then you wouldn't have to add an option in dashboard asking a user if they'd like to "Convert to Multisite (This Cannot Be Undone)" kinda thing. But doing it at install time, or after install time - just as easy.

Because I had SFTP access on the Developer Edition, I was able to just enable it manually. But that does come with caveats - like you cannot change the URL in Cloudron if you're a multisite (it's stores the domain in a different place in the DB with multisite, and also in wp-config.php). That, and the WP-CRON that would need multisite support.

The only think beyond those two things (which I could code easily to integrate with Cloudron) is real domain aliases (not redirections) would be needed. Which, after looking into reverseproxy.js, shouldn't be hard. I just am horrible at editing dashboard code every time I try.

[robi]

what is the purpose of including redis?

[d19dotca]

@robi Redis can be used for caching improvements to WordPress, some plugins will work with redis as the caching backend.

[robi]

@d19dotca there's already several instances that run as shown in Cloudron services, but I can't tell if that's shared or not.

none of the other databases show which apps use them.

[girish]

@robi The databases are shared since MySQL, PostgreSQL, Mongo etc are multi-tenant. You can setup rules to isolate users and apps. Redis is not multi-tenant. For this reason, there is a redis instance per app. Redis is ultra-light weight though, so it's not really a resource hog/issue.

[marcusquinn]

I spotted an article recently that reminded me of this debate, and I think I can make the distinction a little more familiar:

• Wordpress (Managed) is more like wordpress.com
• Wordpress (Unmanaged) is more like wordpress.org

[robi]

@girish thanks for that.
is that something we can fix graphite with?

[Lonkle]

@girish said in Changes to WordPress apps:

@robi The databases are shared since MySQL, PostgreSQL, Mongo etc are multi-tenant. You can setup rules to isolate users and apps. Redis is not multi-tenant. For this reason, there is a redis instance per app. Redis is ultra-light weight though, so it's not really a resource hog/issue.

I had been wondering this entire time why Redis wasn't shared (I used LAMP a lot in my testing as did I docker network inspect cloudron so because you name the containers as hashes, the redis ones made it easier to identify which was which (my VPN client which had no redis, and the LAMP client), so that was pretty useful to me funnily enough.

[Lonkle]

@marcusquinn said in Changes to WordPress apps:

I spotted an article recently that reminded me of this debate, and I think I can make the distinction a little more familiar:

• Wordpress (Managed) is more like wordpress.com
• Wordpress (Unmanaged) is more like wordpress.org

Great comparison and should hit home, I - for no particular reason - think the name should stay, but at the end of each desciption, it could say:

"Think of this as as simple and easy "wordpress.com" but with plugin support."

Something to that affect would work to compare the two for existing Wordpress users looking to switch.

[marcusquinn]

@Lonk The worry with wordpress.com, Shopify etc, is always the risk of de-platforming with no recourse, when they are judge & jury.

I'm convinced self-hosting federation is the future. Compared to relying on the whims of a single provider, that can have their abuse processes abused by rogue competitors is a very real risk.

These risks increase the more successful you are when rogue competition or trolls can take a dislike and interrupt innocent people & businesses at any time.

[Lonkle]

@marcusquinn said in Changes to WordPress apps:

@Lonk The worry with wordpress.com, Shopify etc, is always the risk of de-platforming with no recourse, when they are judge & jury.

I'm convinced self-hosting federation is the future, relying o the whims of a single provider, that can have their Abuse processes abused by rogue competitors is a very real risk, that increases the more successful you are and rogue competition or trolls can take a dislike and interrupt innocent people & businesses at any time.

Your belief in open source is one of the many reasons I respect ya, man. I think it's more important than people think or realize. Even I didn't for a lonk time. But it's important to own your future. Understand what you're running on, be able to fix something that the developer doesn't have time to because you have access to what you're running on. But seriously, I gotta brag about Cloudron's API one more time, it's amazinggggg. And half of it's private! I'll think about documenting it one day though if I find there's interest but it seems like I've been the only one interested as much in the API.

[marcusquinn]

@Lonk Yeah, all the devs I work with go quiet when I tell them we're going to open-source years and millions of dollars of development work.

I believe in OS, making it happen just takes longer than even my ideologies hope for.

[Lonkle]

@marcusquinn said in Changes to WordPress apps:

@Lonk Yeah, all the devs I work with go quiet when I tell them we're going to open-source years and millions of dollars of development work.

I believe in OS, making it happen just takes longer than even my ideologies hope for.

I'm an idealists. I was telling @girish in another thread - as long as you want to do that and you plan on doing it (we were talking about a box patch) "I don't care about when". This is obviously just my own opinion. But I feel like you're contributing ideologically. It's not the actual action of doing so, it's the intention, even if you don't succeed. At least, that's how I feel. Plus, I'm pretty patient. One day is a perfect answer. Life is crazy and hectic and ever changing.

[marcusquinn]

@Lonk Watch this space - we'll make WP & Woocommerce a seriously fast and international enterprise app that anyone can build on!

It all started because we created what we wanted to use for our needs but did it in a way that should serve almost any.

[Lonkle]

@marcusquinn said in Changes to WordPress apps:

@Lonk Watch this space - we'll make WP & Woocommerce a seriously fast and international enterprise app that anyone can build on!

It all started because we created what we wanted to use for our needs but did it in a way that should serve almost any.

Oh, you've def piqued my curiosity. I'll be watching the space for sure. I've been needing to get back into the WP community (specifically Post Status was my favorite Wordpress Community) anyway so I'll start paying attention more.

[marcusquinn]

@Lonk Did you try our plugin unloading plugin? That should give you some serious TTFBs

[marcusquinn]

We've just switch https://healthshop.net to run on Cloudron. 6,000 products, multilingual, multi-everything — and I know we still have a bunch more optimisations to go.

If ever anyone says WP & Woo can't scale, send them my way

Looking forward to getting into more Cloudron App optimisations.

Honestly, must have tried every other WP hosting on the planet by now - and none of them are truly optimised or even transparent about what they consider optimisation beyond their caching plugin masquerades.

Performance is about uncached code optimisation, and I still can't imagine any of the other so-called enterprise ecommerce platforms being able to do what we can with good old WP and it's community.

[Lonkle]

@marcusquinn said in Changes to WordPress apps:

If ever anyone says WP & Woo can't scale, send them my way

I've been talking about the viability of Woo and Scaling for awhile so I'm excited to see what you've done (at a higher level than your normal communication about it) when you announce it fully. ️

[jdaviescoates]

@Lonk said in Changes to WordPress apps:

The only think beyond those two things (which I could code easily to integrate with Cloudron) is real domain aliases (not redirections) would be needed.

I'd love to see WordPress Multisite on Cloudron.

As I understand it (one of) the problem(s) is that I don't think it's currently possible to have multiple domains pointing to the same Cloudron app, and imho we'd need that to work for Multisite to be useful (so that all the subsites within the multisite can be mapped to their own TLD).

I guess that is what you mean by real domain aliases?

[marcusquinn]

@Lonk Cool - I've never made any inroads in the WP & Woo community TBH, found it quite cliquey and in self-denial with many woocommerc.com plugins we had to fork and fix in desperation from their lack of quality-control.

I've got a fair few core improvement recommendations that fell on deaf ears too - but I'm certain we could make it the operating-system for any organisation.

I guess what we're doing is kinda like all the Cloudron Apps but as WP plugins. It is opinionated and anti-microservices though, so not for everyone - yet.

If you have any contacts that want to get serious about this kind of ambition, I'm always available to talk with fellows that aren't afraid to shoot for the moon.