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  1. Cloudron Forum
  2. Nextcloud
  3. Multiple account privacy

Multiple account privacy

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  • BrutalBirdieB BrutalBirdie

    @BrutalBirdie digging deeper

    R Offline
    R Offline
    Ropyro
    wrote on last edited by
    #10

    @BrutalBirdie Man, thanks for doing the leg-work here. I'll be buying you a beer πŸ™‚

    1 Reply Last reply
    2
    • BrutalBirdieB BrutalBirdie

      @BrutalBirdie digging deeper

      BrutalBirdieB Offline
      BrutalBirdieB Offline
      BrutalBirdie
      Partner
      wrote on last edited by
      #11

      I must be missing something?

      Now you must log out and then log back in to initialize your encryption keys.

      When you log back in, there is a checkbox for enabling encryption on your home storage. This is checked by default. Un-check to avoid encrypting your home storage.

      This never happened? I must be missing something..

      Like my work? Consider donating a drink. Cheers!

      R 1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • BrutalBirdieB BrutalBirdie

        I must be missing something?

        Now you must log out and then log back in to initialize your encryption keys.

        When you log back in, there is a checkbox for enabling encryption on your home storage. This is checked by default. Un-check to avoid encrypting your home storage.

        This never happened? I must be missing something..

        R Offline
        R Offline
        Ropyro
        wrote on last edited by
        #12

        @BrutalBirdie I mean, I see an option to enable "server-side" encryption on the admin/security page but I assume that's different than what you're doing?

        BrutalBirdieB 1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • R Ropyro

          @BrutalBirdie I mean, I see an option to enable "server-side" encryption on the admin/security page but I assume that's different than what you're doing?

          BrutalBirdieB Offline
          BrutalBirdieB Offline
          BrutalBirdie
          Partner
          wrote on last edited by BrutalBirdie
          #13

          @Ropyro Nah that's exactly what I am looking at.

          Also this:
          https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/23/admin_manual/configuration_files/encryption_configuration.html#enabling-users-file-recovery-keys

          Does not exist for me.

          If you want to team up on this we can do a discord call or something πŸ˜„

          Like my work? Consider donating a drink. Cheers!

          R 1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • BrutalBirdieB BrutalBirdie

            @Ropyro Nah that's exactly what I am looking at.

            Also this:
            https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/23/admin_manual/configuration_files/encryption_configuration.html#enabling-users-file-recovery-keys

            Does not exist for me.

            If you want to team up on this we can do a discord call or something πŸ˜„

            R Offline
            R Offline
            Ropyro
            wrote on last edited by
            #14

            @BrutalBirdie Ha! I'm bouncing back and forth between this and another project right now. I appreciate all your help. Gives me a direction to play around with. Beer forthcoming πŸ™‚

            BrutalBirdieB 1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • R Ropyro

              @BrutalBirdie Ha! I'm bouncing back and forth between this and another project right now. I appreciate all your help. Gives me a direction to play around with. Beer forthcoming πŸ™‚

              BrutalBirdieB Offline
              BrutalBirdieB Offline
              BrutalBirdie
              Partner
              wrote on last edited by BrutalBirdie
              #15

              @Ropyro

              Encryption keys are stored only on the Nextcloud server, eliminating exposure of your data to third-party storage providers. The encryption app does not protect your data if your Nextcloud server is compromised, and it does not prevent Nextcloud administrators from reading user’s files. This would require client-side encryption, which this app does not provide. If your Nextcloud server is not connected to any external storage services then it is better to use other encryption tools, such as file-level or whole-disk encryption.

              😐
              This is by design.
              https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/23/admin_manual/configuration_files/encryption_configuration.html
              The first big yellow warning.


              ps: Thanks for the Beer! Cheers 🍻

              Like my work? Consider donating a drink. Cheers!

              BrutalBirdieB 1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • BrutalBirdieB BrutalBirdie

                @Ropyro

                Encryption keys are stored only on the Nextcloud server, eliminating exposure of your data to third-party storage providers. The encryption app does not protect your data if your Nextcloud server is compromised, and it does not prevent Nextcloud administrators from reading user’s files. This would require client-side encryption, which this app does not provide. If your Nextcloud server is not connected to any external storage services then it is better to use other encryption tools, such as file-level or whole-disk encryption.

                😐
                This is by design.
                https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/23/admin_manual/configuration_files/encryption_configuration.html
                The first big yellow warning.


                ps: Thanks for the Beer! Cheers 🍻

                BrutalBirdieB Offline
                BrutalBirdieB Offline
                BrutalBirdie
                Partner
                wrote on last edited by BrutalBirdie
                #16

                And here we go for another round ...
                https://apps.nextcloud.com/apps/impersonate

                This app is not compatible with instances that have encryption enabled.

                01388500-57d0-47d6-b1f0-330a3e5b6e02-grafik.png

                But.... it is? Its working? Right now?

                Like my work? Consider donating a drink. Cheers!

                BrutalBirdieB 1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • robiR Offline
                  robiR Offline
                  robi
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #17

                  You can always encrypt before uploading.

                  Or use internxt.com which does ZK e2e for you.

                  Conscious tech

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  1
                  • BrutalBirdieB BrutalBirdie

                    And here we go for another round ...
                    https://apps.nextcloud.com/apps/impersonate

                    This app is not compatible with instances that have encryption enabled.

                    01388500-57d0-47d6-b1f0-330a3e5b6e02-grafik.png

                    But.... it is? Its working? Right now?

                    BrutalBirdieB Offline
                    BrutalBirdieB Offline
                    BrutalBirdie
                    Partner
                    wrote on last edited by BrutalBirdie
                    #18

                    Ok... this is getting into a convoluted mess.

                    Now I found out there should be a per-user-encryption:
                    https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/latest/admin_manual/configuration_files/encryption_details.html#key-type-user-key

                    Funny how this is missing in the doc for the encryption ooc commands...........
                    https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/23/admin_manual/configuration_server/occ_command.html#encryption-label

                    And also not mentioned in the main doc where they show and tell about the Enabling users file recovery keys.
                    😑

                    I've set up a new Nextcloud (with user managed by the app) and installed the Default Encryption Module then went into the Nextcloud app web-terminal and did a:

                    root@f6665ea8-5f0a-41f7-b8ae-be1719062c33:/app/code# sudo -u www-data php -f /app/code/occ encryption:disable-master-key
                    Warning: Only perform this operation for a fresh installations with no existing encrypted data! There is no way to enable the master key again. We strongly recommend to keep the master key, it provides significant performance improvements and is easier to handle for both, users and administrators. Do you really want to switch to per-user keys? (y/n) y
                    Master key successfully disabled.
                    

                    Then I enabled the server wide encryption.

                    0f395350-8e58-4155-b335-02499f4ec9fa-grafik.png
                    Ok understandable because: https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/latest/admin_manual/configuration_files/encryption_configuration.html#enabling-users-file-recovery-keys

                    So I set a recovery key. Good? Ehhhh... with that I can decrypt files from a user if he allows it.
                    Wait... if the user allows it? By default it's not allowed.
                    So if I try this in the web-terminal:

                    root@f6665ea8-5f0a-41f7-b8ae-be1719062c33:/app/code# sudo -u www-data php -f /app/code/occ encryption:decrypt-all eha
                    Disable server side encryption... done.
                    
                    
                    You are about to start to decrypt all files stored in eha's account.
                    It will depend on the encryption module and your setup if this is possible.
                    Depending on the number and size of your files this can take some time
                    Please make sure that no user access his files during this process!
                    
                    Do you really want to continue? (y/n) y
                    prepare encryption modules...
                    
                    Prepare "Default encryption module"
                    
                    You can only decrypt the users files if you know
                    the users password or if he activated the recovery key.
                    
                    Do you want to use the users login password to decrypt all files? (y/n) n
                    No recovery key available for user eha
                    Module "Default encryption module" does not support the functionality to decrypt all files again or the initialization of the module failed!
                     aborted.
                    Server side encryption remains enabled
                    

                    So now I impersonate the user... and allow it? πŸ€”
                    d78a56dd-a540-4330-afbf-0ce050854698-grafik.png
                    Please no....
                    0611b78e-e775-42c7-9957-76a191842c96-grafik.png
                    Please don't tell me now that I can decrypt the user files afterwards.

                    root@f6665ea8-5f0a-41f7-b8ae-be1719062c33:/app/code# sudo -u www-data php -f /app/code/occ encryption:decrypt-all eha
                    Disable server side encryption... done.
                    
                    
                    You are about to start to decrypt all files stored in eha's account.
                    It will depend on the encryption module and your setup if this is possible.
                    Depending on the number and size of your files this can take some time
                    Please make sure that no user access his files during this process!
                    
                    Do you really want to continue? (y/n) y
                    prepare encryption modules...
                    
                    Prepare "Default encryption module"
                    
                    You can only decrypt the users files if you know
                    the users password or if he activated the recovery key.
                    
                    Do you want to use the users login password to decrypt all files? (y/n) n
                    Please enter the recovery key password: 
                     done.
                    
                    
                    
                    
                    
                     starting to decrypt files... finished 
                     [============================]
                    
                    
                    Files for following users couldn't be decrypted, 
                    maybe the user is not set up in a way that supports this operation: 
                        eha
                            /eha/files/allowed_recovery.md
                            /eha/files/deny_recovery.md
                    
                    Server side encryption remains enabled
                    

                    thank god.

                    If I now look into the security tab as the user:
                    1d3fc02f-985b-4591-97e5-ed6559e491e5-grafik.png
                    This looks bugged.
                    So disable it again:
                    6f8a9e84-91cb-4d15-88c3-6be0f9182c30-grafik.png
                    and enable it again:
                    ba9fedb6-867a-4e9c-a23f-adca13ccda0d-grafik.png
                    Hmmm this Recovery Key enabled did never happen as impersonated user.
                    So this could be used as an indicator if an admin tried to decrypt your files... good to know I guess.

                    So now I can decrypt the user files with the recovery password?

                    root@f6665ea8-5f0a-41f7-b8ae-be1719062c33:/app/code# sudo -u www-data php -f /app/code/occ encryption:decrypt-all eha
                    Disable server side encryption... done.
                    
                    
                    You are about to start to decrypt all files stored in eha's account.
                    It will depend on the encryption module and your setup if this is possible.
                    Depending on the number and size of your files this can take some time
                    Please make sure that no user access his files during this process!
                    
                    Do you really want to continue? (y/n) y
                    prepare encryption modules...
                    
                    Prepare "Default encryption module"
                    
                    You can only decrypt the users files if you know
                    the users password or if he activated the recovery key.
                    
                    Do you want to use the users login password to decrypt all files? (y/n) n
                    Please enter the recovery key password: 
                     done.
                    
                    
                    
                    
                    
                     starting to decrypt files... finished 
                     [============================]
                    
                    
                    all files could be decrypted successfully!
                    Server side encryption remains enabled
                    

                    Yep worked.
                    ...
                    Okay I will write that down a bit clearer tomorrow. (And try this again with LDAP instead of user management by the app)

                    My head is smoking.
                    This documentation of Nextcloud is a nightmare!

                    Like my work? Consider donating a drink. Cheers!

                    R 1 Reply Last reply
                    5
                    • BrutalBirdieB BrutalBirdie

                      Ok... this is getting into a convoluted mess.

                      Now I found out there should be a per-user-encryption:
                      https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/latest/admin_manual/configuration_files/encryption_details.html#key-type-user-key

                      Funny how this is missing in the doc for the encryption ooc commands...........
                      https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/23/admin_manual/configuration_server/occ_command.html#encryption-label

                      And also not mentioned in the main doc where they show and tell about the Enabling users file recovery keys.
                      😑

                      I've set up a new Nextcloud (with user managed by the app) and installed the Default Encryption Module then went into the Nextcloud app web-terminal and did a:

                      root@f6665ea8-5f0a-41f7-b8ae-be1719062c33:/app/code# sudo -u www-data php -f /app/code/occ encryption:disable-master-key
                      Warning: Only perform this operation for a fresh installations with no existing encrypted data! There is no way to enable the master key again. We strongly recommend to keep the master key, it provides significant performance improvements and is easier to handle for both, users and administrators. Do you really want to switch to per-user keys? (y/n) y
                      Master key successfully disabled.
                      

                      Then I enabled the server wide encryption.

                      0f395350-8e58-4155-b335-02499f4ec9fa-grafik.png
                      Ok understandable because: https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/latest/admin_manual/configuration_files/encryption_configuration.html#enabling-users-file-recovery-keys

                      So I set a recovery key. Good? Ehhhh... with that I can decrypt files from a user if he allows it.
                      Wait... if the user allows it? By default it's not allowed.
                      So if I try this in the web-terminal:

                      root@f6665ea8-5f0a-41f7-b8ae-be1719062c33:/app/code# sudo -u www-data php -f /app/code/occ encryption:decrypt-all eha
                      Disable server side encryption... done.
                      
                      
                      You are about to start to decrypt all files stored in eha's account.
                      It will depend on the encryption module and your setup if this is possible.
                      Depending on the number and size of your files this can take some time
                      Please make sure that no user access his files during this process!
                      
                      Do you really want to continue? (y/n) y
                      prepare encryption modules...
                      
                      Prepare "Default encryption module"
                      
                      You can only decrypt the users files if you know
                      the users password or if he activated the recovery key.
                      
                      Do you want to use the users login password to decrypt all files? (y/n) n
                      No recovery key available for user eha
                      Module "Default encryption module" does not support the functionality to decrypt all files again or the initialization of the module failed!
                       aborted.
                      Server side encryption remains enabled
                      

                      So now I impersonate the user... and allow it? πŸ€”
                      d78a56dd-a540-4330-afbf-0ce050854698-grafik.png
                      Please no....
                      0611b78e-e775-42c7-9957-76a191842c96-grafik.png
                      Please don't tell me now that I can decrypt the user files afterwards.

                      root@f6665ea8-5f0a-41f7-b8ae-be1719062c33:/app/code# sudo -u www-data php -f /app/code/occ encryption:decrypt-all eha
                      Disable server side encryption... done.
                      
                      
                      You are about to start to decrypt all files stored in eha's account.
                      It will depend on the encryption module and your setup if this is possible.
                      Depending on the number and size of your files this can take some time
                      Please make sure that no user access his files during this process!
                      
                      Do you really want to continue? (y/n) y
                      prepare encryption modules...
                      
                      Prepare "Default encryption module"
                      
                      You can only decrypt the users files if you know
                      the users password or if he activated the recovery key.
                      
                      Do you want to use the users login password to decrypt all files? (y/n) n
                      Please enter the recovery key password: 
                       done.
                      
                      
                      
                      
                      
                       starting to decrypt files... finished 
                       [============================]
                      
                      
                      Files for following users couldn't be decrypted, 
                      maybe the user is not set up in a way that supports this operation: 
                          eha
                              /eha/files/allowed_recovery.md
                              /eha/files/deny_recovery.md
                      
                      Server side encryption remains enabled
                      

                      thank god.

                      If I now look into the security tab as the user:
                      1d3fc02f-985b-4591-97e5-ed6559e491e5-grafik.png
                      This looks bugged.
                      So disable it again:
                      6f8a9e84-91cb-4d15-88c3-6be0f9182c30-grafik.png
                      and enable it again:
                      ba9fedb6-867a-4e9c-a23f-adca13ccda0d-grafik.png
                      Hmmm this Recovery Key enabled did never happen as impersonated user.
                      So this could be used as an indicator if an admin tried to decrypt your files... good to know I guess.

                      So now I can decrypt the user files with the recovery password?

                      root@f6665ea8-5f0a-41f7-b8ae-be1719062c33:/app/code# sudo -u www-data php -f /app/code/occ encryption:decrypt-all eha
                      Disable server side encryption... done.
                      
                      
                      You are about to start to decrypt all files stored in eha's account.
                      It will depend on the encryption module and your setup if this is possible.
                      Depending on the number and size of your files this can take some time
                      Please make sure that no user access his files during this process!
                      
                      Do you really want to continue? (y/n) y
                      prepare encryption modules...
                      
                      Prepare "Default encryption module"
                      
                      You can only decrypt the users files if you know
                      the users password or if he activated the recovery key.
                      
                      Do you want to use the users login password to decrypt all files? (y/n) n
                      Please enter the recovery key password: 
                       done.
                      
                      
                      
                      
                      
                       starting to decrypt files... finished 
                       [============================]
                      
                      
                      all files could be decrypted successfully!
                      Server side encryption remains enabled
                      

                      Yep worked.
                      ...
                      Okay I will write that down a bit clearer tomorrow. (And try this again with LDAP instead of user management by the app)

                      My head is smoking.
                      This documentation of Nextcloud is a nightmare!

                      R Offline
                      R Offline
                      Ropyro
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #19

                      @BrutalBirdie Man, what a mess! I didn't have time to look into it today as deeply as you did. Can't thank you enough!

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      1
                      • mehdiM Offline
                        mehdiM Offline
                        mehdi
                        App Dev
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #20

                        Basically, what you want for this is end-to-end encryption (and I know a bit about this, it's literally my job to implement E2EE ^^).

                        The problem is that the nextcloud app that provides E2EE is bad, like really bad, like "my files just disappeared, i have no idea why" bad.

                        So, long story short, there is no simple way for you to provide this service to your friend with nextcloud with you not being able to look at their files.

                        BrutalBirdieB 1 Reply Last reply
                        2
                        • mehdiM mehdi

                          Basically, what you want for this is end-to-end encryption (and I know a bit about this, it's literally my job to implement E2EE ^^).

                          The problem is that the nextcloud app that provides E2EE is bad, like really bad, like "my files just disappeared, i have no idea why" bad.

                          So, long story short, there is no simple way for you to provide this service to your friend with nextcloud with you not being able to look at their files.

                          BrutalBirdieB Offline
                          BrutalBirdieB Offline
                          BrutalBirdie
                          Partner
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #21

                          @mehdi also saw that the E2E app is more abandonware then anything. That's why I did not mention it more.

                          But to have no real and easy setup for this on Nextcloud is a real shame.

                          Like my work? Consider donating a drink. Cheers!

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          2
                          • mehdiM Offline
                            mehdiM Offline
                            mehdi
                            App Dev
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #22

                            As an alternative, I know that https://www.seafile.com/ is a file storage solution which offers end2end encryption, but when I last tried it (admittedly a few years ago) the client software was πŸ’©

                            timconsidineT 1 Reply Last reply
                            2
                            • mehdiM mehdi

                              As an alternative, I know that https://www.seafile.com/ is a file storage solution which offers end2end encryption, but when I last tried it (admittedly a few years ago) the client software was πŸ’©

                              timconsidineT Offline
                              timconsidineT Offline
                              timconsidine
                              App Dev
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #23

                              @mehdi I moved my file storage/sharing from Nextcloud to Seafile.
                              Nextcloud works well but is just bloat-ware if you don't use the collab features.
                              Seafile is working well for me.
                              Sadly self-hosted on another VPS instead of Cloudron at this stage (until some nice brave person packages it for Cloudron!)
                              Maybe I'm cheap and easy to please but client software (on Mac) works fine for me, as both syncing client and remote drive client.

                              Having said all that, I haven't explored the E2E encryption on multi-user basis.

                              jdaviescoatesJ 1 Reply Last reply
                              3
                              • timconsidineT timconsidine

                                @mehdi I moved my file storage/sharing from Nextcloud to Seafile.
                                Nextcloud works well but is just bloat-ware if you don't use the collab features.
                                Seafile is working well for me.
                                Sadly self-hosted on another VPS instead of Cloudron at this stage (until some nice brave person packages it for Cloudron!)
                                Maybe I'm cheap and easy to please but client software (on Mac) works fine for me, as both syncing client and remote drive client.

                                Having said all that, I haven't explored the E2E encryption on multi-user basis.

                                jdaviescoatesJ Offline
                                jdaviescoatesJ Offline
                                jdaviescoates
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #24

                                @timconsidine said in Multiple account privacy:

                                Seafile is working well for me.
                                Sadly self-hosted on another VPS instead of Cloudron at this stage (until some nice brave person packages it for Cloudron!)

                                Upvote here:
                                https://forum.cloudron.io/post/1237

                                I use Cloudron with Gandi & Hetzner

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                3
                                • R Offline
                                  R Offline
                                  Ropyro
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #25

                                  Thanks for everyone for their input on this. I love the community here. It's really surprising to me that this functionality isn't clear/straightforward. I've moved forward with a straightforward solution. I just installed another instance of Nextcloud for my friend. A little clunky but it works. It's just my personal Cloudron server anyway.

                                  BrutalBirdieB 1 Reply Last reply
                                  2
                                  • R Ropyro

                                    Thanks for everyone for their input on this. I love the community here. It's really surprising to me that this functionality isn't clear/straightforward. I've moved forward with a straightforward solution. I just installed another instance of Nextcloud for my friend. A little clunky but it works. It's just my personal Cloudron server anyway.

                                    BrutalBirdieB Offline
                                    BrutalBirdieB Offline
                                    BrutalBirdie
                                    Partner
                                    wrote on last edited by BrutalBirdie
                                    #26

                                    @Ropyro said in Multiple account privacy:

                                    I just installed another instance of Nextcloud for my friend

                                    If this relieves his privacy concerns... well. OK I guess 🀣
                                    You are still the admin and can view the data..

                                    e823a72f-d47f-4089-a005-e93a788108e1-grafik.png
                                    (alt: There is no cloud, just other people's computers - Sticker by fsfe.org)

                                    But still, there must be a solution for this.
                                    I don't want to believe Nextcloud has no good solution for this..

                                    Like my work? Consider donating a drink. Cheers!

                                    R 1 Reply Last reply
                                    2
                                    • BrutalBirdieB BrutalBirdie

                                      @Ropyro said in Multiple account privacy:

                                      I just installed another instance of Nextcloud for my friend

                                      If this relieves his privacy concerns... well. OK I guess 🀣
                                      You are still the admin and can view the data..

                                      e823a72f-d47f-4089-a005-e93a788108e1-grafik.png
                                      (alt: There is no cloud, just other people's computers - Sticker by fsfe.org)

                                      But still, there must be a solution for this.
                                      I don't want to believe Nextcloud has no good solution for this..

                                      R Offline
                                      R Offline
                                      Ropyro
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #27

                                      @BrutalBirdie Ha -- it didn't. I figured out after I set it up I still had access to his files πŸ™‚

                                      1 Reply Last reply
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