Installing custom Apps on Cloudron
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@scooke Completely get your point.
That's why I liked what @girish said:
if we can find a ux flow where it's clear that this is out of scope for the Cloudron team, then it would be great to have 3rd party apps [...]
What's necessary is to make it clear to users that no support from the team will or can be provided for a 3rd party app, that's what 3rd party implies, as well as potential risks and bugs.
It's the same with, e.g., a 3rd party PPA on ubuntu, a custom APK on Android, a cool application you just found on GitHub, etc.
I think distros like Ubuntu use the right words to explain this to users.
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I think it is already clear. The user knows it is a custom app. It seems logical that Cloudron updates what it manages. The user is still unclear, and taking time away from other more directly-connected Cloudron help requests.
One issue is just how helpful the Cloudron team is! When I think of all the times I used an included piece of software in Yunohost or Caprover or what have you, ran into trouble, went to their forums and other onlines sources of help, asked a clearly worded, respectful question.... and then got no response, ever... the total 180 in attitude by users on this Forum and specifically the Cloudron Team is stupendous. They need to be saved from themselves! So, I think one way to ensure users understand that they shouldn't expect help, or at least priority, is to keep the custom install method not part of any official-sounding process. Anyone brave enough to try a custom install needs to go digging for it, to trawl the forums, to get help (and give it) from other Forums users, without making any complaint towards or about Cloudron.
OR, Cloudron should make a Priority Tier of help that automatically charges $$. Anyone on the Forum who signs up, and also tries out Custom apps, should include a payment method so that when (not if) they come looking for help they are charged automatically. That might cut down on ppl just trying stuff out, or ppl who think they are more apt then they really are., and not fill the Forum with their niche help requests.
While I'm ranting, lumping home servers, NUCs and Cloudflare usage in with this paid-tier might also help drive home that Cloudron's main use is, as the home page says,
Create a fresh Ubuntu Jammy 22.04 x64 server and run these commands. I realize Cloudron itself suggests that home servers (behind arcane router options) and NUCs (often "protected" by Cloudflare) are options, but for the most part much of how it is described makes it clear that it is intended to be installed and run on a VPS.Well, I know that door is opened already and there is a horde of Cloudflareons here, and homehosters... but this is not how I promote Cloudron.
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I think if we can find a ux flow where it's clear that this is out of scope for the Cloudron team, then it would be great to have 3rd party apps. It needs a better messaging than 'unstable' because 3rd party doesn't mean unstable. We will brainstorm a bit on our side and get back on this.
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I think it is already clear. The user knows it is a custom app. It seems logical that Cloudron updates what it manages. The user is still unclear, and taking time away from other more directly-connected Cloudron help requests.
One issue is just how helpful the Cloudron team is! When I think of all the times I used an included piece of software in Yunohost or Caprover or what have you, ran into trouble, went to their forums and other onlines sources of help, asked a clearly worded, respectful question.... and then got no response, ever... the total 180 in attitude by users on this Forum and specifically the Cloudron Team is stupendous. They need to be saved from themselves! So, I think one way to ensure users understand that they shouldn't expect help, or at least priority, is to keep the custom install method not part of any official-sounding process. Anyone brave enough to try a custom install needs to go digging for it, to trawl the forums, to get help (and give it) from other Forums users, without making any complaint towards or about Cloudron.
OR, Cloudron should make a Priority Tier of help that automatically charges $$. Anyone on the Forum who signs up, and also tries out Custom apps, should include a payment method so that when (not if) they come looking for help they are charged automatically. That might cut down on ppl just trying stuff out, or ppl who think they are more apt then they really are., and not fill the Forum with their niche help requests.
While I'm ranting, lumping home servers, NUCs and Cloudflare usage in with this paid-tier might also help drive home that Cloudron's main use is, as the home page says,
Create a fresh Ubuntu Jammy 22.04 x64 server and run these commands. I realize Cloudron itself suggests that home servers (behind arcane router options) and NUCs (often "protected" by Cloudflare) are options, but for the most part much of how it is described makes it clear that it is intended to be installed and run on a VPS.Well, I know that door is opened already and there is a horde of Cloudflareons here, and homehosters... but this is not how I promote Cloudron.
@scooke said in Installing custom Apps on Cloudron:
So, I think one way to ensure users understand that they shouldn't expect help, or at least priority, is to keep the custom install method not part of any official-sounding process.
That immediately made me think of Android developer options. You tap 7 times on the build number or whatever it is, and developer options appear.
Maybe the custom apps feature could be hidden behind something like this?
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Even if it's labelled "Unsupported", if it's available through any Cloudron dashboard/App store, people will still expect help, and likely will complain (publicly?) about Cloudron's policies when and if official Cloudron help isn't forthcoming.
Just to be clear, I appear to be ranting and may seem to hold strongly to my opinions... yes and no. Cloudron is always free to pivot however they feel they need, even if it means adding zero's to the pricing. I've just been with them awhile, and compared to what else is out there, it would be a shame to see discontent of over-ambitious users play a role in the downfall. I mean, the Cloudron team has kept it going this long, and this well. I trust them to make the right calls. I'm just trying to say that I support them!
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@scooke Completely get your point.
That's why I liked what @girish said:
if we can find a ux flow where it's clear that this is out of scope for the Cloudron team, then it would be great to have 3rd party apps [...]
What's necessary is to make it clear to users that no support from the team will or can be provided for a 3rd party app, that's what 3rd party implies, as well as potential risks and bugs.
It's the same with, e.g., a 3rd party PPA on ubuntu, a custom APK on Android, a cool application you just found on GitHub, etc.
I think distros like Ubuntu use the right words to explain this to users.
@Lanhild said in Installing custom Apps on Cloudron:
I think distros like Ubuntu use the right words to explain this to users.
Agree, this is good communication for such cases
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@Lanhild said in Installing custom Apps on Cloudron:
I think distros like Ubuntu use the right words to explain this to users.
Agree, this is good communication for such cases
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@Lanhild said in Installing custom Apps on Cloudron:
I think distros like Ubuntu use the right words to explain this to users.
Agree, this is good communication for such cases
@necrevistonnezr it's still not comparable or compatible. No one "pays" for Ubuntu, so no one expects the CEO of Ubuntu to rally their support team to help them specifically. Add to that awareness is that there are 1000s of users out there, and 100s of forums, where one can Google and search and eventually find someone who can answer their question. Not so with Cloudron.
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A similar effort which might have some insight to share with the Cloudron Team - Coolify. At https://coolify.io/pricing it is made clear that yes, you as a user can install pretty much anything you want. To get support though you need to pay. The prices reflect that. And the most experimental you are with important work,the higher price you pay. @girish @cloudron If you all ever consider doing more with allowing custom apps, and how to deal with the resulting increased support, maybe the Coolify team can share some good ideas.
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A similar effort which might have some insight to share with the Cloudron Team - Coolify. At https://coolify.io/pricing it is made clear that yes, you as a user can install pretty much anything you want. To get support though you need to pay. The prices reflect that. And the most experimental you are with important work,the higher price you pay. @girish @cloudron If you all ever consider doing more with allowing custom apps, and how to deal with the resulting increased support, maybe the Coolify team can share some good ideas.
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@scooke I totally respect your point of view. May you share with us the motivation that drives you in this particular case, please?
@Kubernetes By "this case", do you mean the topic of this thread? I've just been using Cloudron since 2016 and have enjoyed its development and openness. Their willingness to help is part of the attraction and value. But at some point it might be too much. Users started asking for custom apps and some of these just weren't on their roadmap - a good example of the Cloudron team limiting their workload to keep excellence a priority. One result though, because they like helping, was to start giving tips and assistance to the few programmatically adept users here to make their own custom apps and install them!! This step right here is incredible. I'm simplifying things here now, but as Cloudron also promoted its use as a homelab option, coupled with the mess that Cloudflare seems to always bring, has resulted in more forums posts which tend to lay the blame on Cloudron. If these posts appear in Google searches, the casual reader could get the impression that Cloudron is not such a reliable or dependable solution. The opposite is true! Another huge blessing (can't think of another word) is that many of the forum users who have helped bring the custom app option to the fore are themselves super helpful... but they aren't paid, they have their own lives, they are busy, and so help isn't always as ready. Overall, I see more users wanting custom apps, or homeserving, running into foreseeable problems which tend to be almost untroubleshootable because of the X # of variables involved... more posts making it seem like the problem lies with Cloudron. So my motivation...? My motivation is to try to share a perspective that results in appreciation of Cloudron which stems from using it in what seems to be the ideal environment, while not overwhelming Support with niche issues and /or rewarding Cloudron with paid support if they do support niche issues - but not resulting in an overall jump in price for users like myself!
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@Kubernetes By "this case", do you mean the topic of this thread? I've just been using Cloudron since 2016 and have enjoyed its development and openness. Their willingness to help is part of the attraction and value. But at some point it might be too much. Users started asking for custom apps and some of these just weren't on their roadmap - a good example of the Cloudron team limiting their workload to keep excellence a priority. One result though, because they like helping, was to start giving tips and assistance to the few programmatically adept users here to make their own custom apps and install them!! This step right here is incredible. I'm simplifying things here now, but as Cloudron also promoted its use as a homelab option, coupled with the mess that Cloudflare seems to always bring, has resulted in more forums posts which tend to lay the blame on Cloudron. If these posts appear in Google searches, the casual reader could get the impression that Cloudron is not such a reliable or dependable solution. The opposite is true! Another huge blessing (can't think of another word) is that many of the forum users who have helped bring the custom app option to the fore are themselves super helpful... but they aren't paid, they have their own lives, they are busy, and so help isn't always as ready. Overall, I see more users wanting custom apps, or homeserving, running into foreseeable problems which tend to be almost untroubleshootable because of the X # of variables involved... more posts making it seem like the problem lies with Cloudron. So my motivation...? My motivation is to try to share a perspective that results in appreciation of Cloudron which stems from using it in what seems to be the ideal environment, while not overwhelming Support with niche issues and /or rewarding Cloudron with paid support if they do support niche issues - but not resulting in an overall jump in price for users like myself!
@scooke Thanks for sharing your concerns and motivation to highlight them. I understand the point.
Maybe it is an always existing conflict, that if there is a platform to provide application services, that there is need for more apps. The master question is, how to deal with it?
On the other hand it doesn't look to me that there are many support questions regarding custom apps, or even supported apps. But this is just a feeling as someone who reads every new thread and all replies all day. Maybe my impression is wrong.
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@scooke Thanks for sharing your concerns and motivation to highlight them. I understand the point.
Maybe it is an always existing conflict, that if there is a platform to provide application services, that there is need for more apps. The master question is, how to deal with it?
On the other hand it doesn't look to me that there are many support questions regarding custom apps, or even supported apps. But this is just a feeling as someone who reads every new thread and all replies all day. Maybe my impression is wrong.
@Kubernetes I agree on the number of support requests which is still ok, IMHO, and quite repetitive: Re-citing my old list, most troubleshoot answers are now:
- use a different browser (i.e. NOT Firefox or Safari)
- clear browser cache
- stop using that nextcloud/wordpress/[something something] plug-in/add-in
- restart unbound and / or box service
- don't use Cloudflare
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@scooke Thanks for sharing your concerns and motivation to highlight them. I understand the point.
Maybe it is an always existing conflict, that if there is a platform to provide application services, that there is need for more apps. The master question is, how to deal with it?
On the other hand it doesn't look to me that there are many support questions regarding custom apps, or even supported apps. But this is just a feeling as someone who reads every new thread and all replies all day. Maybe my impression is wrong.
@Kubernetes said in Installing custom Apps on Cloudron:
Maybe it is an always existing conflict, that if there is a platform to provide application services, that there is need for more apps.
These are the words I was trying to put together.
, completely agree. -
@Kubernetes I agree on the number of support requests which is still ok, IMHO, and quite repetitive: Re-citing my old list, most troubleshoot answers are now:
- use a different browser (i.e. NOT Firefox or Safari)
- clear browser cache
- stop using that nextcloud/wordpress/[something something] plug-in/add-in
- restart unbound and / or box service
- don't use Cloudflare
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I got an idea today:
- Add a field to the
CloudronManifest.jsonschema; something in the likes ofappstoreHost(and potentiallyappstoreTokenfor auth) - Have an installable App Store application, where one can push their manifests for custom applications
Applications would then be installable on the Cloudron by using a new button in the "App Store" tab, that points to the configured custom App Store.
- Add a field to the
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I got an idea today:
- Add a field to the
CloudronManifest.jsonschema; something in the likes ofappstoreHost(and potentiallyappstoreTokenfor auth) - Have an installable App Store application, where one can push their manifests for custom applications
Applications would then be installable on the Cloudron by using a new button in the "App Store" tab, that points to the configured custom App Store.
- Add a field to the
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@Lanhild it's possible to have multiple appstores, but the problem here is not technical though. With external appstore, a user has to be educated about the implications of installing from external sources. The user has to figure out who is packaging the app, whether it is safe to install, whether the app will continue to be maintained etc. Currently, for advanced users, they can already build and install apps themselves (in fact, if an app packager published the docker image, then they don't need to build it. It's a simple
cloudron install --image xx) . Does it really need to be made any simpler given that we incorporate apps into our app store already as and when possible. -
@Lanhild it's possible to have multiple appstores, but the problem here is not technical though. With external appstore, a user has to be educated about the implications of installing from external sources. The user has to figure out who is packaging the app, whether it is safe to install, whether the app will continue to be maintained etc. Currently, for advanced users, they can already build and install apps themselves (in fact, if an app packager published the docker image, then they don't need to build it. It's a simple
cloudron install --image xx) . Does it really need to be made any simpler given that we incorporate apps into our app store already as and when possible. -
@girish This command can install prebuilt docker images?
cloudron install --image xx
If so, a lot of apps can be installed, for example flowise.
