Installing custom Apps on Cloudron

[scooke]

A similar effort which might have some insight to share with the Cloudron Team - Coolify. At https://coolify.io/pricing it is made clear that yes, you as a user can install pretty much anything you want. To get support though you need to pay. The prices reflect that. And the most experimental you are with important work,the higher price you pay. @girish @cloudron If you all ever consider doing more with allowing custom apps, and how to deal with the resulting increased support, maybe the Coolify team can share some good ideas.

[Kubernetes]

@scooke I totally respect your point of view. May you share with us the motivation that drives you in this particular case, please?

[scooke]

@Kubernetes By "this case", do you mean the topic of this thread? I've just been using Cloudron since 2016 and have enjoyed its development and openness. Their willingness to help is part of the attraction and value. But at some point it might be too much. Users started asking for custom apps and some of these just weren't on their roadmap - a good example of the Cloudron team limiting their workload to keep excellence a priority. One result though, because they like helping, was to start giving tips and assistance to the few programmatically adept users here to make their own custom apps and install them!! This step right here is incredible. I'm simplifying things here now, but as Cloudron also promoted its use as a homelab option, coupled with the mess that Cloudflare seems to always bring, has resulted in more forums posts which tend to lay the blame on Cloudron. If these posts appear in Google searches, the casual reader could get the impression that Cloudron is not such a reliable or dependable solution. The opposite is true! Another huge blessing (can't think of another word) is that many of the forum users who have helped bring the custom app option to the fore are themselves super helpful... but they aren't paid, they have their own lives, they are busy, and so help isn't always as ready. Overall, I see more users wanting custom apps, or homeserving, running into foreseeable problems which tend to be almost untroubleshootable because of the X # of variables involved... more posts making it seem like the problem lies with Cloudron. So my motivation...? My motivation is to try to share a perspective that results in appreciation of Cloudron which stems from using it in what seems to be the ideal environment, while not overwhelming Support with niche issues and /or rewarding Cloudron with paid support if they do support niche issues - but not resulting in an overall jump in price for users like myself!

[Kubernetes]

@scooke Thanks for sharing your concerns and motivation to highlight them. I understand the point.

Maybe it is an always existing conflict, that if there is a platform to provide application services, that there is need for more apps. The master question is, how to deal with it?

On the other hand it doesn't look to me that there are many support questions regarding custom apps, or even supported apps. But this is just a feeling as someone who reads every new thread and all replies all day. Maybe my impression is wrong.

[necrevistonnezr]

@Kubernetes I agree on the number of support requests which is still ok, IMHO, and quite repetitive: Re-citing my old list, most troubleshoot answers are now:

• use a different browser (i.e. NOT Firefox or Safari)
• clear browser cache
• stop using that nextcloud/wordpress/[something something] plug-in/add-in
• restart unbound and / or box service
• don't use Cloudflare

[Lanhild]

@Kubernetes said in Installing custom Apps on Cloudron:

Maybe it is an always existing conflict, that if there is a platform to provide application services, that there is need for more apps.

These are the words I was trying to put together. , completely agree.

[Lanhild]

@necrevistonnezr

Often, there are also app-specific questions that are not related to the app itself but directly to the upstream. That's not exclusive to Cloudron, it also happens all the time in IT.

[Lanhild]

@girish

I got an idea today:

• Add a field to the CloudronManifest.json schema; something in the likes of appstoreHost (and potentially appstoreToken for auth)
• Have an installable App Store application, where one can push their manifests for custom applications

Applications would then be installable on the Cloudron by using a new button in the "App Store" tab, that points to the configured custom App Store.

[Lanhild]

@Lanhild

@girish I am bumping this to know if, with the current Cloudron architecture, this would be feasible?

If so, I think it would be the easiest, least maintenance way to do it, while also keeping the flexibility of custom apps.

[girish]

@Lanhild it's possible to have multiple appstores, but the problem here is not technical though. With external appstore, a user has to be educated about the implications of installing from external sources. The user has to figure out who is packaging the app, whether it is safe to install, whether the app will continue to be maintained etc. Currently, for advanced users, they can already build and install apps themselves (in fact, if an app packager published the docker image, then they don't need to build it. It's a simple cloudron install --image xx ) . Does it really need to be made any simpler given that we incorporate apps into our app store already as and when possible.

[taowang]

@girish This command can install prebuilt docker images?

cloudron install --image xx

If so, a lot of apps can be installed, for example flowise.

[girish]

@taowang no, it cannot install arbitrary docker images. Only images built for Cloudron.

[crazybrad]

As a relatively new member of the Cloudron community (especially compared to @scooke) I can see both points of view. The current collection of apps is very eclectic, spanning both personal and business. And to a certain extent that reflects the wide range of our community - a strength.

I do not envy @girish and team trying to please all of us. It is both thankless and impossible. But one person's "must have" app is another person's "who cares". The danger is losing members if their needs are not met with the applications they need or want.

Perhaps having a simplified installation process would allow more people to customize their Cloudrons as desired. And yes, despite the warnings that you are on your own, I am sure that support questions will arise. And the spirit of the Cloudron team and the community to help will always prevail. As long as these questions are within reasonable limits, perhaps this will allow the platform to grow more valuable without being overwhelmed. I would suggest that custom-installed apps have its own topic area, especially if the results could be hidden from search engines to prevent prospective members getting the wrong impression about Cloudron's reliability per @scooke 's valid concerns.

Finally, I am personally interested in a business-oriented, custom-app platform where Dockerized applications can be hosted in a well-thought out and architected environment like Cloudron. We are exploring several ideas along these lines, including adding some private applications we have created, others we have paid to license, and some that are open source. And these systems would require incremental Cloudrons - helping to grow the revenue stream. In the end, that's the idea, isn't it...

[timconsidine]

Working on another approach.
It is possible to do ‘cloudron login -u username -p password my.domain.tld’ but what about 2FA ?
Is there a parameter for that value ?
Like ‘-2fa 123456’ ?

[james]

There is also this topic Proposal: The CUR - Cloudron User Repository

What do you people think of the following?
Adding an input field in the app-store view to directly upload a CloudronManifest.json.

Mockup:

To make this work, a new optional 'key': 'value' in the CloudronManifest.json would be needed to add the Docker Image information so Cloudron knows where to pull the image from for this custom app.
Example from @BrutalBirdie custom FounderyVTT app => https://forum.cloudron.io/topic/8296/foundry-virtual-tabletop // https://github.com/BrutalBirdie/cloudron-foundryvtt

{
  "id": "foundryvtt.cloudron.app",
  "title": "FoundryVTT",
  "author": "Elias Hackradt ",
  "tagline": "FounderyVTT",
  "upstreamVersion": "13.345",
  "version": "1.2.0",
  "healthCheckPath": "/",
  "icon": "file://logo.png",
  "tags": [ "game", "multiplayer" ],
  "memoryLimit": 1342177280,
  "httpPort": 30000,
  "manifestVersion": 2,
  "minBoxVersion": "5.3.0",
  "addons": {
    "localstorage": {}
  },
  "dockerimage": "brutalbirdie/foundryvtt.cloudron.app:1.2.0"
}

This would make the barrier relatively small in my opinion.

Looking forward to reading your opinions.

[Kubernetes]

@james I would love to have this enhancement. This would be a game changer for custom (unsupported) Apps

[fbartels]

@james said in Installing custom Apps on Cloudron:

upload a CloudronManifest.json

I would absolutely welcome the idea to make custom app installations more easy for third party installations and less technical users. I am not sure however is uploading a json file will really make it easier for the majority of users, as these will still need to rely on someone else producing a properly formatting manifest file (and don't mess up formatting on the way).

Including the container image name in the manifest does sound like a good idea, but how about instead of uploading the manifest through the store the user could provide the url for where multiple such manifests are stored? Then app developers could publish their own stores.

[BrutalBirdie]

@fbartels so basically what I proposed here Proposal: The CUR - Cloudron User Repository

I said in Proposal: The CUR - Cloudron User Repository:

Now imagine a CUR.
With a simple click in the setting you can enable the CUR and can install a community app to test and give feedback.

[fbartels]

@BrutalBirdie reading linked posts?

[Lanhild]

@james I'm good with this approach, as long as "apps" I upload can be private. Custom applications aren't necessarily public or shareable, but would greatly benefit from this.