Installing custom Apps on Cloudron
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Even if it's labelled "Unsupported", if it's available through any Cloudron dashboard/App store, people will still expect help, and likely will complain (publicly?) about Cloudron's policies when and if official Cloudron help isn't forthcoming.
Just to be clear, I appear to be ranting and may seem to hold strongly to my opinions... yes and no. Cloudron is always free to pivot however they feel they need, even if it means adding zero's to the pricing. I've just been with them awhile, and compared to what else is out there, it would be a shame to see discontent of over-ambitious users play a role in the downfall. I mean, the Cloudron team has kept it going this long, and this well. I trust them to make the right calls. I'm just trying to say that I support them!
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@Lanhild said in Installing custom Apps on Cloudron:
I think distros like Ubuntu use the right words to explain this to users.
Agree, this is good communication for such cases
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@necrevistonnezr it's still not comparable or compatible. No one "pays" for Ubuntu, so no one expects the CEO of Ubuntu to rally their support team to help them specifically. Add to that awareness is that there are 1000s of users out there, and 100s of forums, where one can Google and search and eventually find someone who can answer their question. Not so with Cloudron.
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A similar effort which might have some insight to share with the Cloudron Team - Coolify. At https://coolify.io/pricing it is made clear that yes, you as a user can install pretty much anything you want. To get support though you need to pay. The prices reflect that. And the most experimental you are with important work,the higher price you pay. @girish @cloudron If you all ever consider doing more with allowing custom apps, and how to deal with the resulting increased support, maybe the Coolify team can share some good ideas.
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@Kubernetes By "this case", do you mean the topic of this thread? I've just been using Cloudron since 2016 and have enjoyed its development and openness. Their willingness to help is part of the attraction and value. But at some point it might be too much. Users started asking for custom apps and some of these just weren't on their roadmap - a good example of the Cloudron team limiting their workload to keep excellence a priority. One result though, because they like helping, was to start giving tips and assistance to the few programmatically adept users here to make their own custom apps and install them!! This step right here is incredible. I'm simplifying things here now, but as Cloudron also promoted its use as a homelab option, coupled with the mess that Cloudflare seems to always bring, has resulted in more forums posts which tend to lay the blame on Cloudron. If these posts appear in Google searches, the casual reader could get the impression that Cloudron is not such a reliable or dependable solution. The opposite is true! Another huge blessing (can't think of another word) is that many of the forum users who have helped bring the custom app option to the fore are themselves super helpful... but they aren't paid, they have their own lives, they are busy, and so help isn't always as ready. Overall, I see more users wanting custom apps, or homeserving, running into foreseeable problems which tend to be almost untroubleshootable because of the X # of variables involved... more posts making it seem like the problem lies with Cloudron. So my motivation...? My motivation is to try to share a perspective that results in appreciation of Cloudron which stems from using it in what seems to be the ideal environment, while not overwhelming Support with niche issues and /or rewarding Cloudron with paid support if they do support niche issues - but not resulting in an overall jump in price for users like myself!
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@scooke Thanks for sharing your concerns and motivation to highlight them. I understand the point.
Maybe it is an always existing conflict, that if there is a platform to provide application services, that there is need for more apps. The master question is, how to deal with it?
On the other hand it doesn't look to me that there are many support questions regarding custom apps, or even supported apps. But this is just a feeling as someone who reads every new thread and all replies all day. Maybe my impression is wrong.
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@Kubernetes I agree on the number of support requests which is still ok, IMHO, and quite repetitive: Re-citing my old list, most troubleshoot answers are now:
- use a different browser (i.e. NOT Firefox or Safari)
- clear browser cache
- stop using that nextcloud/wordpress/[something something] plug-in/add-in
- restart unbound and / or box service
- don't use Cloudflare
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@Kubernetes said in Installing custom Apps on Cloudron:
Maybe it is an always existing conflict, that if there is a platform to provide application services, that there is need for more apps.
These are the words I was trying to put together.
, completely agree. -
Often, there are also app-specific questions that are not related to the app itself but directly to the upstream. That's not exclusive to Cloudron, it also happens all the time in IT.
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I got an idea today:
- Add a field to the
CloudronManifest.jsonschema; something in the likes ofappstoreHost(and potentiallyappstoreTokenfor auth) - Have an installable App Store application, where one can push their manifests for custom applications
Applications would then be installable on the Cloudron by using a new button in the "App Store" tab, that points to the configured custom App Store.
- Add a field to the
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@Lanhild it's possible to have multiple appstores, but the problem here is not technical though. With external appstore, a user has to be educated about the implications of installing from external sources. The user has to figure out who is packaging the app, whether it is safe to install, whether the app will continue to be maintained etc. Currently, for advanced users, they can already build and install apps themselves (in fact, if an app packager published the docker image, then they don't need to build it. It's a simple
cloudron install --image xx) . Does it really need to be made any simpler given that we incorporate apps into our app store already as and when possible. -
As a relatively new member of the Cloudron community (especially compared to @scooke) I can see both points of view. The current collection of apps is very eclectic, spanning both personal and business. And to a certain extent that reflects the wide range of our community - a strength.
I do not envy @girish and team trying to please all of us. It is both thankless and impossible. But one person's "must have" app is another person's "who cares". The danger is losing members if their needs are not met with the applications they need or want.
Perhaps having a simplified installation process would allow more people to customize their Cloudrons as desired. And yes, despite the warnings that you are on your own, I am sure that support questions will arise. And the spirit of the Cloudron team and the community to help will always prevail. As long as these questions are within reasonable limits, perhaps this will allow the platform to grow more valuable without being overwhelmed. I would suggest that custom-installed apps have its own topic area, especially if the results could be hidden from search engines to prevent prospective members getting the wrong impression about Cloudron's reliability per @scooke 's valid concerns.
Finally, I am personally interested in a business-oriented, custom-app platform where Dockerized applications can be hosted in a well-thought out and architected environment like Cloudron. We are exploring several ideas along these lines, including adding some private applications we have created, others we have paid to license, and some that are open source. And these systems would require incremental Cloudrons - helping to grow the revenue stream. In the end, that's the idea, isn't it...
