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  3. How does spam work with special mail folders?

How does spam work with special mail folders?

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emailmaciosspamjunk
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  • girishG girish

    @d19dotca @imc67 I don't have a Mac or iOS to test but the IMAP configuration is just:

        mailbox Spam {
            auto = subscribe
            special_use = \Junk
        }
    

    So, the directory is called Spam and special use flag is set per RFC 6154. Is that not enough for the Mail client?

    On Thunderbird, I need to configure it like this:

    e3e484f7-4376-46ef-bdf7-36ad17cf1ec9-image.png

    d19dotcaD Offline
    d19dotcaD Offline
    d19dotca
    wrote on last edited by
    #6

    @girish That works on macOS the same way as it does for you on Thunderbird where one can set the junk folder. Unfortunately on iOS, it insists on creating its own junk folder if it doesn’t find one when using the junk button, and so it can’t be set to use the special spam folder that was auto-generated in Cloudron. This means on iOS I have to take a few extra steps/taps to file the message away in the spam folder, because if I hit the designated junk button it will create its own folder since one does not exists that it recognizes.

    This issue presents a user experience conflict.

    One way I would typically work this in any other email service solution is to create the folder iOS expects and use that for junk. However if I were to do this in Cloudron, I’m worried (and no answer has been provided to confirm this yet) that the actual spam learning that’s automatically done won’t actually take place, as I suspect since the spam folder can not be deleted that it is the only folder spamassassin is set to learn from.

    I think a solution here would be to allow a Cloudron user (or maybe just admins / domain admins) to create or choose the special folder that spamassassin will learn from for spam or ham. Basically, giving users more insight and control into spam services. This was also addressed in a few other threads on spam and improving its usability for users by exposing some of spamassassin features to admins or users and allowing them to set their own spam preferences.

    --
    Dustin Dauncey
    www.d19.ca

    1 Reply Last reply
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    • girishG Offline
      girishG Offline
      girish
      Staff
      wrote on last edited by
      #7

      Ah, I see. I happened to get hold of a Mac today and can confirm that I can select the Spam folder and it works correctly as per https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202325

      18a613f0-f6af-4188-9df7-d6191b458a0b-image.png

      For iOS, it seems there is no solution. For example, someone has similar problem with outlook.com addresses as well - https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7805226. And per https://clients.websavers.ca/whmcs/knowledgebase/231/Using-iOSandsharp039s-Junk-mail-folder-alongside-Spam.html there is no way to configure Junk mailbox name in iOS...

      Currently, Cloudron will only learn (and unlearn) from "Spam" folder. It's easy to add Junk folder as well for training purposes but have to then figure out which folder incoming spam should end up.

      1 Reply Last reply
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      • girishG Offline
        girishG Offline
        girish
        Staff
        wrote on last edited by
        #8

        @d19dotca How does this work with gmail accounts on iOS btw? Or is it that they have "pre-configured" provide listing when you create an account and thus hard coded spam folder name accordingly (because gmail uses Spam and not Junk afaik).

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        • girishG Offline
          girishG Offline
          girish
          Staff
          wrote on last edited by
          #9

          OK, here's a workaround for iOS.

          • SSH into server and create symlink from Junk to Spam
            # cd /home/yellowtent/boxdata/mail/vmail/{mailboxname}/mail
            # ln -s .Spam .Junk`
            # docker restart mail
          

          You have to do above for all mailboxes. This will make both Spam and Junk folder identical and they will both appear in mail clients (unfortunate...). But atleast, it will make iOS client work.

          We are looking into migrating the folder names for a future Cloudron release (there is a bug that we used "." as the separator in folder names. this makes ACLs and shared mailboxes unviable). Maybe at that time, we can look into making these folder names more customizable.

          d19dotcaD necrevistonnezrN 3 Replies Last reply
          1
          • girishG girish

            OK, here's a workaround for iOS.

            • SSH into server and create symlink from Junk to Spam
              # cd /home/yellowtent/boxdata/mail/vmail/{mailboxname}/mail
              # ln -s .Spam .Junk`
              # docker restart mail
            

            You have to do above for all mailboxes. This will make both Spam and Junk folder identical and they will both appear in mail clients (unfortunate...). But atleast, it will make iOS client work.

            We are looking into migrating the folder names for a future Cloudron release (there is a bug that we used "." as the separator in folder names. this makes ACLs and shared mailboxes unviable). Maybe at that time, we can look into making these folder names more customizable.

            d19dotcaD Offline
            d19dotcaD Offline
            d19dotca
            wrote on last edited by
            #10

            @girish That's an interesting workaround idea. I assume the only downside to that workaround though is that anytime the Cloudron server restarts, those changes go away and need to be re-entered? Or do they stick around?

            --
            Dustin Dauncey
            www.d19.ca

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            • girishG Offline
              girishG Offline
              girish
              Staff
              wrote on last edited by
              #11

              The symlinks will stick around. They are not part of the backups though. So you have to re-create the symlinks if you restore cloudron to another server.

              I got the symlink idea from here https://wiki.dovecot.org/SharedMailboxes/Symlinks . I tried it on my server and it does work. Works quite nicely on thunderbird because it doesn't auto-subscribe to Spam folder by default even (so I don't have to adjust my spam settings for new accounts).

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              • imc67I Offline
                imc67I Offline
                imc67
                translator
                wrote on last edited by
                #12

                found this, is this something to configure ourselfves in Haraka config?

                https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/105145/what-are-the-default-special-folder-names-for-imap-accounts-in-mail-app-like-dr#105146

                d19dotcaD 1 Reply Last reply
                1
                • imc67I imc67

                  found this, is this something to configure ourselfves in Haraka config?

                  https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/105145/what-are-the-default-special-folder-names-for-imap-accounts-in-mail-app-like-dr#105146

                  d19dotcaD Offline
                  d19dotcaD Offline
                  d19dotca
                  wrote on last edited by d19dotca
                  #13

                  @imc67 That SO post is great, I had seen that many years ago when running a mail server before and couldn't find it to raise in this forum. haha. Thanks for finding that!

                  @girish Per the RFC mentioned in that first response to the OP in SO, it indicates that the folder really should be named "Junk", not "Spam", and I think this is partly the root cause of why the default Mail app in macOS and iOS do not see it by default - because it's following RFC and expecting the folder to be named "Junk".

                  --
                  Dustin Dauncey
                  www.d19.ca

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                  1
                  • girishG Offline
                    girishG Offline
                    girish
                    Staff
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #14

                    The folder name is different from the special_use flags. The RFC is suggesting the use of the "\junk" flag. This is what Cloudron also does. The mailbox name is not suggested in the RFC AFAICT. Can you tell me which section you are referring to?

                    d19dotcaD 1 Reply Last reply
                    1
                    • girishG girish

                      The folder name is different from the special_use flags. The RFC is suggesting the use of the "\junk" flag. This is what Cloudron also does. The mailbox name is not suggested in the RFC AFAICT. Can you tell me which section you are referring to?

                      d19dotcaD Offline
                      d19dotcaD Offline
                      d19dotca
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #15

                      @girish Ah, I believe you are correct there. I think I just typically see the names the same so I mixed them up. I still think though that it should be named "Junk" instead of "Spam" as that is what I have used in the past and it works well. Even your Thunderbird screenshot indicates they expect it to be named "Junk" too as they don't use the word "Spam". Of course that's just my interpretation and past experience, but I believe you're correct that this isn't a defined requirement in the RFC.

                      I really think admins should have more control over this, such as setting up their own default folder list, for example, or the ability to mark multiple folders as '\Junk' and the ability to remove the Spam folder in favour of naming it Junk.

                      --
                      Dustin Dauncey
                      www.d19.ca

                      girishG 1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • d19dotcaD d19dotca

                        @girish Ah, I believe you are correct there. I think I just typically see the names the same so I mixed them up. I still think though that it should be named "Junk" instead of "Spam" as that is what I have used in the past and it works well. Even your Thunderbird screenshot indicates they expect it to be named "Junk" too as they don't use the word "Spam". Of course that's just my interpretation and past experience, but I believe you're correct that this isn't a defined requirement in the RFC.

                        I really think admins should have more control over this, such as setting up their own default folder list, for example, or the ability to mark multiple folders as '\Junk' and the ability to remove the Spam folder in favour of naming it Junk.

                        girishG Offline
                        girishG Offline
                        girish
                        Staff
                        wrote on last edited by girish
                        #16

                        @d19dotca said in How does spam work with special mail folders?:

                        I really think admins should have more control over this, such as setting up their own default folder list, for example, or the ability to mark multiple folders as '\Junk' and the ability to remove the Spam folder in favour of naming it Junk.

                        I can get behind this. But I am quite practical about these things. There's nothing we can do to fix iOS and mac, so I am OK to even rename the folder to Junk if it increases compatibility. In the coming release (5.3), I have put some "state" information that will help us migrate to the release after. Existing installations can be on Spam and new installations can use Junk. I am doing the same for the mailbox separator. (moving things from . to / to make mailbox sharing work).

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        4
                        • girishG girish

                          OK, here's a workaround for iOS.

                          • SSH into server and create symlink from Junk to Spam
                            # cd /home/yellowtent/boxdata/mail/vmail/{mailboxname}/mail
                            # ln -s .Spam .Junk`
                            # docker restart mail
                          

                          You have to do above for all mailboxes. This will make both Spam and Junk folder identical and they will both appear in mail clients (unfortunate...). But atleast, it will make iOS client work.

                          We are looking into migrating the folder names for a future Cloudron release (there is a bug that we used "." as the separator in folder names. this makes ACLs and shared mailboxes unviable). Maybe at that time, we can look into making these folder names more customizable.

                          necrevistonnezrN Offline
                          necrevistonnezrN Offline
                          necrevistonnezr
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #17

                          @girish said in How does spam work with special mail folders?:

                          OK, here's a workaround for iOS.

                          • SSH into server and create symlink from Junk to Spam
                            # cd /home/yellowtent/boxdata/mail/vmail/{mailboxname}/mail
                            # ln -s .Spam .Junk`
                            # docker restart mail
                          

                          You have to do above for all mailboxes. This will make both Spam and Junk folder identical and they will both appear in mail clients (unfortunate...). But atleast, it will make iOS client work.

                          We are looking into migrating the folder names for a future Cloudron release (there is a bug that we used "." as the separator in folder names. this makes ACLs and shared mailboxes unviable). Maybe at that time, we can look into making these folder names more customizable.

                          BTW there's similar "problem" for "Sent" / "Sent Messages" and "Trash" / "Deleted Messages"...

                          d19dotcaD 1 Reply Last reply
                          1
                          • necrevistonnezrN necrevistonnezr

                            @girish said in How does spam work with special mail folders?:

                            OK, here's a workaround for iOS.

                            • SSH into server and create symlink from Junk to Spam
                              # cd /home/yellowtent/boxdata/mail/vmail/{mailboxname}/mail
                              # ln -s .Spam .Junk`
                              # docker restart mail
                            

                            You have to do above for all mailboxes. This will make both Spam and Junk folder identical and they will both appear in mail clients (unfortunate...). But atleast, it will make iOS client work.

                            We are looking into migrating the folder names for a future Cloudron release (there is a bug that we used "." as the separator in folder names. this makes ACLs and shared mailboxes unviable). Maybe at that time, we can look into making these folder names more customizable.

                            BTW there's similar "problem" for "Sent" / "Sent Messages" and "Trash" / "Deleted Messages"...

                            d19dotcaD Offline
                            d19dotcaD Offline
                            d19dotca
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #18

                            @necrevistonnezr True. The difference though is at least it can be worked around on iOS and macOS as you can set the folder roles. Can’t do that with spam/junk folder unfortunately.

                            023320FE-4EBE-4DA6-B8E9-19FF089D4B93.jpeg

                            --
                            Dustin Dauncey
                            www.d19.ca

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            1
                            • girishG girish

                              OK, here's a workaround for iOS.

                              • SSH into server and create symlink from Junk to Spam
                                # cd /home/yellowtent/boxdata/mail/vmail/{mailboxname}/mail
                                # ln -s .Spam .Junk`
                                # docker restart mail
                              

                              You have to do above for all mailboxes. This will make both Spam and Junk folder identical and they will both appear in mail clients (unfortunate...). But atleast, it will make iOS client work.

                              We are looking into migrating the folder names for a future Cloudron release (there is a bug that we used "." as the separator in folder names. this makes ACLs and shared mailboxes unviable). Maybe at that time, we can look into making these folder names more customizable.

                              necrevistonnezrN Offline
                              necrevistonnezrN Offline
                              necrevistonnezr
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #19

                              @girish said in How does spam work with special mail folders?:

                              OK, here's a workaround for iOS.

                              • SSH into server and create symlink from Junk to Spam
                                # cd /home/yellowtent/boxdata/mail/vmail/{mailboxname}/mail
                                # ln -s .Spam .Junk`
                                # docker restart mail
                              

                              @girish Wouldn't it make sense to create hardlinks instead of symlinks for these folders so that you don't have duplicate folders? Ar am I overlooking something?

                              girishG 1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • necrevistonnezrN necrevistonnezr

                                @girish said in How does spam work with special mail folders?:

                                OK, here's a workaround for iOS.

                                • SSH into server and create symlink from Junk to Spam
                                  # cd /home/yellowtent/boxdata/mail/vmail/{mailboxname}/mail
                                  # ln -s .Spam .Junk`
                                  # docker restart mail
                                

                                @girish Wouldn't it make sense to create hardlinks instead of symlinks for these folders so that you don't have duplicate folders? Ar am I overlooking something?

                                girishG Offline
                                girishG Offline
                                girish
                                Staff
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #20

                                @necrevistonnezr said in How does spam work with special mail folders?:

                                @girish Wouldn't it make sense to create hardlinks instead of symlinks for these folders so that you don't have duplicate folders? Ar am I overlooking something?

                                The cloudron backup logic does not understand hardlinks. It would then end up taking backup of your junk folder twice. This is unlike symlinks which is ignored by the backup code. Neither the symlink nor the contents of a symlink are backed up.

                                This does bring up an important point that if you move your mail server to a different server, you have to remember to create this symlink by hand again!

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