Indecisive : rocket.chat or matrix ?
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@robi : I like mattermost on desktop, but I re-checked what was my (emphasis : MY) issue with mobile app.
All their current apps rely on GSF (Google Services Framework?) and I am de-googling.
I checked the F-Droid and Aurora stores for a non-google version, but there are none (except 3 yr old).
They offer a compile yourself option, but this is beyond me, as you need to add in your own push notification.
So that's why they do not have a non-GSF version : they are bought into Google.Not sure how Element gets around that, because I'm sure I get notifications on Andoroid Graphene non-google. But maybe it's not push, just frequent polling. Personally I don't mind about that, even if it is technically inefficient.
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@robi : I like mattermost on desktop, but I re-checked what was my (emphasis : MY) issue with mobile app.
All their current apps rely on GSF (Google Services Framework?) and I am de-googling.
I checked the F-Droid and Aurora stores for a non-google version, but there are none (except 3 yr old).
They offer a compile yourself option, but this is beyond me, as you need to add in your own push notification.
So that's why they do not have a non-GSF version : they are bought into Google.Not sure how Element gets around that, because I'm sure I get notifications on Andoroid Graphene non-google. But maybe it's not push, just frequent polling. Personally I don't mind about that, even if it is technically inefficient.
@timconsidine you can run your own gotify.net server.. there's a topic here on it too.
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I've installed both, and used both, but in the end I stuck with Matrix/Element. WHy?
Rocket.Chat needed 2GB + of ram. Matrix and Element needed half of that.
Rocket.Chat felt too much like a forum - rather static, and the sense that "I" was in control made it feel overbearing. I like that Matrix/Element allows me to interact with others on their terms (their profiles, their Matrix servers and how they've set it up), and just felt more dynamic than static.
That said, I think Rocket.Chat would be great as a "help destination" for a business, and in fact that's how I used it initially for two projects. It assured the people that I knew what I was doing simply because it was "my rocket.chat". They only interacted within our specific chat space; they didn't need to see all the various nutcases and interesting people I'm connected to on Matrix/Element.
That's my 2c.
A life lived in fear is a life half-lived
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I've installed both, and used both, but in the end I stuck with Matrix/Element. WHy?
Rocket.Chat needed 2GB + of ram. Matrix and Element needed half of that.
Rocket.Chat felt too much like a forum - rather static, and the sense that "I" was in control made it feel overbearing. I like that Matrix/Element allows me to interact with others on their terms (their profiles, their Matrix servers and how they've set it up), and just felt more dynamic than static.
That said, I think Rocket.Chat would be great as a "help destination" for a business, and in fact that's how I used it initially for two projects. It assured the people that I knew what I was doing simply because it was "my rocket.chat". They only interacted within our specific chat space; they didn't need to see all the various nutcases and interesting people I'm connected to on Matrix/Element.
That's my 2c.
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@timconsidine you can run your own gotify.net server.. there's a topic here on it too.
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@robi thank you, yes, I overlooked Mattermost. So stupid as I have it installed !
I did have some problems a while back getting it installed on Android, but will take another look at that.
@timconsidine Don't know if it matters, but iirc mattermost does not have access control in the community edition that we have on Cloudron. As in, all the users are "equal" and any user can archive channels etc. There is no fine grained permissions.
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+1 for Rocket.Chat
It does the job pretty nicely imho.
It's also top of the list here and we can't all be wrong:
https://selfhosted.libhunt.com/categories/1654-communication-systems
I've always found Matrix to be harder to find rooms and to use generally.
And yeah like Girish says Mattermost CE doesn't include any permissions system.
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+1 for Rocket.Chat
It does the job pretty nicely imho.
It's also top of the list here and we can't all be wrong:
https://selfhosted.libhunt.com/categories/1654-communication-systems
I've always found Matrix to be harder to find rooms and to use generally.
And yeah like Girish says Mattermost CE doesn't include any permissions system.
@jdaviescoates There is a commenting system which is like a Free version of Disqus too, Commento, which Cloudron already supports.
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I already have matrix/element installed, and generally use it as client to a few matrix groups, and only small amount of individual messaging.
I want to get off Viber, and wondering whether to move my personal messaging to Matrix or to Riot.
If I understand correctly, friends/family would need to download Element or another if I go Matrix. Would there be more options for them if I go Riot ?
Trying to understand form respective websites, but I am not seeing clearly.
Also those here who use Rocket.Chat : is it really mostly/only for messaging, or do you use the audio/video chat, and is it as good as Jitsi ?
Sorry for rubbish high-level questions.
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Rocket Chat for business and orgs.
Signal for family & friends that aren't dimwits.
Been through all this research and testing for so long, the rest are all clumsy, buggy and more difficult than necessary IMHO.
Web Design https://www.evergreen.je
Development https://brandlight.org
Life https://marcusquinn.com -
Rocket Chat for business and orgs.
Signal for family & friends that aren't dimwits.
Been through all this research and testing for so long, the rest are all clumsy, buggy and more difficult than necessary IMHO.
@marcusquinn nice summary !
Yeah, it's probably a kinda FAQ thing almost. Sorry.Main problem : most of my family/friends and business contacts are dimwits. Including those working in IT !
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@marcusquinn nice summary !
Yeah, it's probably a kinda FAQ thing almost. Sorry.Main problem : most of my family/friends and business contacts are dimwits. Including those working in IT !
@timconsidine then they won't figure out the shortcomings of Mattermost for you to have trouble
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Zulip looks like it could be promising for mixed use, but Cloudron App development seems to have hit capacity, so I don't expect to see it here any time soon:
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Mattermost is nice, but has the same feel as Rocket.Chat. I was just checking mine out again and see that the Channels, or rooms, would be a nice way to silo your social circles, and they would be none the wiser that there are other convos going on. That might be nice, but then you'd also have to jump from Channel to channel. You might post a response to something in the wrong channel.
BUT, even though I promoted Matrix/Element, one weakness stands out for me (for M/E), and that is how it handles its security. Now, what follows may be off a bit in details but let me try: You can ask Matrix/Element to encrypt the convos end to end, but it gives several warnings that if you lose the key or other sign-in mode, you lose the convo. Ok, fair enough, I'm certain I won't, but what about your chattees? Also, this higher security means, for me at least, that when I go to sign in by another device, I have to scan QR codes and a few other steps to ensure it is me. In my early days I had already signed out of the main device, and so when trying to sign in on a new one, there was no way for me to authenticate, or prove, that the new device was me because it wanted the original device to approve it. I can't remember why I gave up, but I just re-installed and kept that in mind for next time. So, a mess-up like that could really screw your efforts up. And those with whom you are chatting. I guess NOT turning on encryption is one way to avoid that, but, that option is touted as one of the major benefits of Matrix/Element.
Since we're talking dimwits here, Matrix/Element might not be the best option.
Plus, RC and Mattermost both have plugins you can add, making them rather handy.
A life lived in fear is a life half-lived
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Mattermost is nice, but has the same feel as Rocket.Chat. I was just checking mine out again and see that the Channels, or rooms, would be a nice way to silo your social circles, and they would be none the wiser that there are other convos going on. That might be nice, but then you'd also have to jump from Channel to channel. You might post a response to something in the wrong channel.
BUT, even though I promoted Matrix/Element, one weakness stands out for me (for M/E), and that is how it handles its security. Now, what follows may be off a bit in details but let me try: You can ask Matrix/Element to encrypt the convos end to end, but it gives several warnings that if you lose the key or other sign-in mode, you lose the convo. Ok, fair enough, I'm certain I won't, but what about your chattees? Also, this higher security means, for me at least, that when I go to sign in by another device, I have to scan QR codes and a few other steps to ensure it is me. In my early days I had already signed out of the main device, and so when trying to sign in on a new one, there was no way for me to authenticate, or prove, that the new device was me because it wanted the original device to approve it. I can't remember why I gave up, but I just re-installed and kept that in mind for next time. So, a mess-up like that could really screw your efforts up. And those with whom you are chatting. I guess NOT turning on encryption is one way to avoid that, but, that option is touted as one of the major benefits of Matrix/Element.
Since we're talking dimwits here, Matrix/Element might not be the best option.
Plus, RC and Mattermost both have plugins you can add, making them rather handy.
@scooke : that's actually very important, so thank you. I was thinking through along similar lines.
I was reminded of it because I didn't yet find a Matrix client which supports multiple servers. So on my side I would be forced to have a "work Matrix" and "personal Matrix" app if I have them on multiple servers. Not ideal.
Of course I can just have them on same server for my ease of use, but then auth/re-auth thing is a bit of PITA (although I understand why it is needed).
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@scooke : that's actually very important, so thank you. I was thinking through along similar lines.
I was reminded of it because I didn't yet find a Matrix client which supports multiple servers. So on my side I would be forced to have a "work Matrix" and "personal Matrix" app if I have them on multiple servers. Not ideal.
Of course I can just have them on same server for my ease of use, but then auth/re-auth thing is a bit of PITA (although I understand why it is needed).
@timconsidine Did you look at Pleroma?
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@timconsidine Did you look at Pleroma?
@loudlemur hmmmm, not really.
It's an interesting alternative approach
Really I just want a WnatsApp/Viber/Telegram/Signal type of app which is self-hosted and has google-free android client.
Maybe I will have to consider Session. -
@loudlemur hmmmm, not really.
It's an interesting alternative approach
Really I just want a WnatsApp/Viber/Telegram/Signal type of app which is self-hosted and has google-free android client.
Maybe I will have to consider Session.@timconsidine Session doesn't have Voice & Video, and it's a bit of a nuisance to get people swapping IDs.
Seriously, I'd go with Rocket Chat for businesses/orgs. Signal for personal. Then, look at alternatives to see if they are better.
I hate wasted time, and I do not believe this approach would waste yours. Be mindful of analysis paralysis too, my recommendations come from experience to save you from mostly the same.
Web Design https://www.evergreen.je
Development https://brandlight.org
Life https://marcusquinn.com -
@timconsidine Session doesn't have Voice & Video, and it's a bit of a nuisance to get people swapping IDs.
Seriously, I'd go with Rocket Chat for businesses/orgs. Signal for personal. Then, look at alternatives to see if they are better.
I hate wasted time, and I do not believe this approach would waste yours. Be mindful of analysis paralysis too, my recommendations come from experience to save you from mostly the same.
@marcusquinn said in Indecisive : rocket.chat or matrix ?:
@timconsidine Session doesn't have Voice & Video, and it's a bit of a nuisance to get people swapping IDs.
Seriously, I'd go with Rocket Chat for businesses/orgs. Signal for personal. Then, look at alternatives to see if they are better.
I hate wasted time, and I do not believe this approach would waste yours. Be mindful of analysis paralysis too, my recommendations come from experience to save you from mostly the same.
Session is soon to start support for Lokinet, which will allow video streaming, so keep an eye on it. There is currently some rudimentary support for voice on Session too. (You can press a button, record sound, and it saves the sound file in a Session message.
Telegram sends all its stuff through a centralized, proprietary server, and requires a phone for registration and Twitter account for technical support.
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@timconsidine Session doesn't have Voice & Video, and it's a bit of a nuisance to get people swapping IDs.
Seriously, I'd go with Rocket Chat for businesses/orgs. Signal for personal. Then, look at alternatives to see if they are better.
I hate wasted time, and I do not believe this approach would waste yours. Be mindful of analysis paralysis too, my recommendations come from experience to save you from mostly the same.
@marcusquinn : yes, possibly
certainly will be trialling rocket chat.The real problem - all of my own making - is that I am seeking to de-google and most clients for messaging systems are GSF.
Apart from Matrix and Telegram.analysis paralysis
love the expression, and yes a very real danger
EDIT : just noticed Signal have an APK on their site, and I was just checking FDroid & Aurora.
