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After watching a video of the
I started (WIP) a comparative of Android Chat/Call Application, my focus was privacy and anonymity.- Potentially Dangerous Persmissions numbers comes from the project Exodus
- Pii: means you need to use a Personal identifiable information such as a phone number and/or an email
Proprietary Apps
Apps Trackers Potentially Dangerous Permissions Require Pii Note Facebook Messenger 4 4 yes (email/phone number) It don't just use Facebook tracker, but also Google Analytics Line Lite 1 6 yes (phone number) Use Google Firebase Analytics Facebook Messenger Lite 1 7 yes (email/phone number) Use Google Analytics Google Duo 1 9 yes (email) Use Google Analytics Snapchat 3 10 Google AdMob WhatsApp 1 13 yes (phone number) Use Google Analytics and it is own by Facebook WeChat 5 13 Use Google Firebase Analytics, Facebook Analytics, Facebook Login and Facebook Share Skype 5 13 Use Google Firebase Analytics and Microsoft VS App Center Crashes, Microsoft VS App Center Analytics Line 4 14 yes (phone number) Use Google Analytics, Google AdMob, Facebook Login and Facebook Share Telegram 2 15 yes (phone number) Use Google Firebase Analytics and Microsoft VS App Center Crashes Skype Lite 4 16 Use Google Firebase Analytics and Microsoft VS App Center Crashes, Microsoft VS App Center Analytics Viber 10 16 yes (phone number) Use Google Firebase Analytics, Google AdMob, Google CrashLytics, Twitter MoPub and Yandex Ad Telegram X 3 17 yes (phone number) Use Google Firebase Analytics and Google AdMob Open Source Project to consider
Apps Trackers Potentially Dangerous Permissions Require Pii Note Briar 0 2 no Probably the best one for pseudo-anonymity. Jitsi Meet 0 4 optional Great alternative to Zoom Nextcloud Talk 0 4 require login (username, email) + server side could be self-hosted Jami 0 5 optional Element 0 8 require login (username) + server side could be self-hosted Linphone 0 9 yes (phone number) Signal 0 19 yes (phone number) Mattermost 1 3 require login (username) + server side could be self-hosted + could be use as a gateway to others services. Wire 1 7 yes (email) At the end, the best is to host your own Nextcloud and convince your friend to come on your Nextcloud Talk
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Someone just pinged me this link on Twitter, seems to be reasonable info:
I saw someone saying the old "I have nothing to hide", although the obviously creep-ware that all these things do help hide is targeted advertising.
Who wants to be "targeted" and have others pay to directly target them with a calculation that makes it more probable to profit from that targeting?
Admittedly, I used to see this as legitimate business but the balance of cost and value to society doesn't seem to be in-line with efficiency and balance in relationships, so I'm personally backing away from all business that is dependent on paid advertising in preference for focusing on editorial value and self-challenging communities with a common interest in value over sales.
@marcusquinn said in Best privacy chat apps:
Admittedly, I used to see this as legitimate business but the balance of cost and value to society doesn't seem to be in-line with efficiency and balance in relationships, so I'm personally backing away from all business that is dependent on paid advertising in preference for focusing on editorial value and self-challenging communities with a common interest in value over sales.
In another project we've come up with a business model that preserves privacy yet allows for getting paid for receiving advertising that is relevant to ones interests, if so desired.
If everyone participated, it would be akin to a UBI with abundance.
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Someone just pinged me this link on Twitter, seems to be reasonable info:
I saw someone saying the old "I have nothing to hide", although the obviously creep-ware that all these things do help hide is targeted advertising.
Who wants to be "targeted" and have others pay to directly target them with a calculation that makes it more probable to profit from that targeting?
Admittedly, I used to see this as legitimate business but the balance of cost and value to society doesn't seem to be in-line with efficiency and balance in relationships, so I'm personally backing away from all business that is dependent on paid advertising in preference for focusing on editorial value and self-challenging communities with a common interest in value over sales.
@marcusquinn said in Best privacy chat apps:
Who wants to be "targeted" and have others pay to directly target them with a calculation that makes it more probable to profit from that targeting?
As must as I hate any kind of privacy-invading workflows, I must confess that (specifically) targeted advertising doesn't really bother me much at all. The fact is those ads are going to be present in that spot on a webpage regardless of whether it's targeted or not. So why not at least show me relevant ads based on search keywords in the tool being used?
To me, the only time I get creeped out and think they've crossed a line for me at least is when they start getting overly sensitive to the ads (such as Facebook) where you're not just being targeted based on a couple of data points and instead you're being targeted based on like a 100+ different data points on data they ideally shouldn't even really have in the first place.
I think it's all a balancing act. Everyone's comfort level is a little different. Just my opinion anyways. But I totally hear ya on the "I have nothing to hide" point, those statements always irritate me when I hear them from people, shows they're completely missing the point when they say that, IMO.
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@jodumont you comparison does not take into account whether or not the messages are encrypted. I personally think it's the most important feature to take into account.
Also, take a look at Olvid. I don't use it personally, but I heard good things.
this table was for my own personal use
@mehdi said in Best privacy chat apps:
I personally think it's the most important feature to take into account.
this is true this feature should be considered,
but also who own the encryption key, the user or the provider ?because most of these service yes you could encrypt a message but the provider (example Telegram) have the 2 keys so technically they could decrypt the message on the server side before forwarding it to the recipient.
Sometimes a function is just an umbrella to make a shadow theater where we are the puppet.
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@jodumont thanks for the table!
for Mattermost, what is meant by 'gateway to other services' ? API integrations?
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@jodumont you comparison does not take into account whether or not the messages are encrypted. I personally think it's the most important feature to take into account.
Also, take a look at Olvid. I don't use it personally, but I heard good things.
@mehdi said in Best privacy chat apps:
Olvid
Olvid sound promessing, we cloud also talk about Threema which is more or less the same but developed in Switzerland. but at the end I took my list from AlternativeTo.net and took the top 10.
Beware most of VOIP use opportunistic encryption mainly because of issues with NAT so trusting a 3rd party for that is a big mistake for your privacy.
These days everything is secure like email aka the authentication use SSL than the message follow in clear text.
It would be interesting to find how/if Olvid encrypt their VOIP and which part ANSSI complement.
for now I only see the text message being encrypted. -
this table was for my own personal use
@mehdi said in Best privacy chat apps:
I personally think it's the most important feature to take into account.
this is true this feature should be considered,
but also who own the encryption key, the user or the provider ?because most of these service yes you could encrypt a message but the provider (example Telegram) have the 2 keys so technically they could decrypt the message on the server side before forwarding it to the recipient.
Sometimes a function is just an umbrella to make a shadow theater where we are the puppet.
@jodumont I am of course only talking about good end-to-end encryption, like Signal or WhatsApp (yeah, WhatsApp has many flaws, mainly their owner, but they do have good encryption).
I don't know about Telegram's encryption, I never looked into it. I just know they don't use any by default (which, in itself, is bad)
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@mehdi said in Best privacy chat apps:
Olvid
Olvid sound promessing, we cloud also talk about Threema which is more or less the same but developed in Switzerland. but at the end I took my list from AlternativeTo.net and took the top 10.
Beware most of VOIP use opportunistic encryption mainly because of issues with NAT so trusting a 3rd party for that is a big mistake for your privacy.
These days everything is secure like email aka the authentication use SSL than the message follow in clear text.
It would be interesting to find how/if Olvid encrypt their VOIP and which part ANSSI complement.
for now I only see the text message being encrypted. -
@mehdi said in Best privacy chat apps:
I don't know about Telegram's encryption, I never looked into it. I just know they don't use any by default (which, in itself, is bad)
we probably don't talk about the same phase of encryption, you seams focusing on the message (which obviously it is important) and I'm talking about the transfer
anyway good thing this forum is encrypted by a SSL
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@mehdi said in Best privacy chat apps:
I don't know about Telegram's encryption, I never looked into it. I just know they don't use any by default (which, in itself, is bad)
we probably don't talk about the same phase of encryption, you seams focusing on the message (which obviously it is important) and I'm talking about the transfer
anyway good thing this forum is encrypted by a SSL
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@jodumont This table seems to be either outdated severly, or just plain wrong. Whatsapp does use end-to-end encryption, and has been using it for years.
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I came across a couple of nice chat comparisons recently.
First of all there is this nice infographic by niboe.info
Sadly I've been unable to find an English version of the other nice infographic in this accompanying article of theirs in Spanish.
I also came across this handy table from DivestOS (a privacy focused Android distribution):
https://divestos.org/index.php?page=messengers
Both of these make we wish Cloudron had an XMPP server like ejabberd so we could get our friends to try out Conversations and Movim (I mean, both Yunohost and HomeLabsOS have an XMPP server, and they are both fully open source and run by volunteers - whereas Cloudron is the one with a business model and full time paid @staff - and yet they've got XMPP and we don't!
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I came across a couple of nice chat comparisons recently.
First of all there is this nice infographic by niboe.info
Sadly I've been unable to find an English version of the other nice infographic in this accompanying article of theirs in Spanish.
I also came across this handy table from DivestOS (a privacy focused Android distribution):
https://divestos.org/index.php?page=messengers
Both of these make we wish Cloudron had an XMPP server like ejabberd so we could get our friends to try out Conversations and Movim (I mean, both Yunohost and HomeLabsOS have an XMPP server, and they are both fully open source and run by volunteers - whereas Cloudron is the one with a business model and full time paid @staff - and yet they've got XMPP and we don't!
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maybe me, but personally I make a difference when you are able to generate or add your own key to encrypt versus the "platform" provide you the public and private key
@jodumont The key is always generated on your own device. There is zero reason to allow users to import an external key. If you don't trust the local app to correctly generate a keypair, you have no reason to trust it to correctly perform the encryption. So importing a key brings nothing.
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I came across a couple of nice chat comparisons recently.
First of all there is this nice infographic by niboe.info
Sadly I've been unable to find an English version of the other nice infographic in this accompanying article of theirs in Spanish.
I also came across this handy table from DivestOS (a privacy focused Android distribution):
https://divestos.org/index.php?page=messengers
Both of these make we wish Cloudron had an XMPP server like ejabberd so we could get our friends to try out Conversations and Movim (I mean, both Yunohost and HomeLabsOS have an XMPP server, and they are both fully open source and run by volunteers - whereas Cloudron is the one with a business model and full time paid @staff - and yet they've got XMPP and we don't!
)@jdaviescoates time to host an event, start packaging and get help finishing it!
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@jdaviescoates time to host an event, start packaging and get help finishing it!
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@robi I've often thought of learning to code. I loved maths as a kid. But now isn't the time.
@jdaviescoates there's no real coding involved.. it's mostly stitching things together and adjusting configs. You'll have help too.
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Looks like Signal App's addition of payments using MobileCoin ($MOB) has struck a raw nerve with many.
Another alternative that seems to come up regularly on the comments underneath their Tweets is this Session App:
YMMV but another one for the list and your esteemed critique.
Web Design https://www.evergreen.je
Development https://brandlight.org
Life https://marcusquinn.com -
Looks like Signal App's addition of payments using MobileCoin ($MOB) has struck a raw nerve with many.
Another alternative that seems to come up regularly on the comments underneath their Tweets is this Session App:
YMMV but another one for the list and your esteemed critique.
@marcusquinn see also Snikket which seems like a great option too (and gets my vote for the XMPP that ought to be first added to Cloudron).
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I'd still take Matrix over all of those for its decentralized and federated nature. It is incredibly secure and their Element client has truly come a long way. I would love to see Snikket and Oragono though. I tried packaging Oragono but lost the motivation part way through as I usually do.
But my vote for matrix comes in here: Me and a friend could both have our own homeservers and still chat in a secure manner. If we're talking privacy, I'd say its at the top for sure.
