Best privacy chat apps

[marcusquinn]

I reckon the fediverse is gonna get more interest following recent FB & Twitter self-determination as censors.

[necrevistonnezr]

@marcusquinn said in Best privacy chat apps:

following recent FB & Twitter self-determination as censors.

?
They are private companies and under no obligation to uphold the First Amendment (US). They are protected by Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, which exempts them from being treated as publishers and both protects them from liability and allows them to regulate content as they see fit.

We can certainly have a discussion if (i) these platforms have reached a monopoly - and hence have an undue influence on public speech - that needs regulation and / or (ii) they should indeed be treated like publishers or the press with all the freedoms and obligations - such as fact checking - attached to it.

Don't get me wrong, I hate these platforms and what they stand for with a passion and am certain that we would all be better off if Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc. were turned off and deleted at once. Giving people and their opinions an unfettered platform has not improved the quality of opinion-forming and discussion but made it so much worse.

In any event, the "freedom of speech" is not an absolute right, neither in the US nor in most countries in the Western hemisphere. Like most constitutional rights they are - as a general rule - limited by the rights of your fellow citizen.

[robi]

Telegram seems to be upholding their censorship free platform so far..

[necrevistonnezr]

@robi said in Best privacy chat apps:

Telegram seems to be upholding their censorship free platform so far..

... and thus has attracted extremist, neo-nazis and covid deniers...

[marcusquinn]

@necrevistonnezr ... and thus law enforcement can learn, find and handle as-is their role.

I don't fancy law enforcement that also has a stock ticker to please.

[JOduMonT]

After watching a video of the

I started (WIP) a comparative of Android Chat/Call Application, my focus was privacy and anonymity.

• Potentially Dangerous Persmissions numbers comes from the project Exodus
• Pii: means you need to use a Personal identifiable information such as a phone number and/or an email

Proprietary Apps

Apps	Trackers	Potentially Dangerous Permissions	Require Pii	Note
Facebook Messenger	4	4	yes (email/phone number)	It don't just use Facebook tracker, but also Google Analytics
Line Lite	1	6	yes (phone number)	Use Google Firebase Analytics
Facebook Messenger Lite	1	7	yes (email/phone number)	Use Google Analytics
Google Duo	1	9	yes (email)	Use Google Analytics
Snapchat	3	10		Google AdMob
WhatsApp	1	13	yes (phone number)	Use Google Analytics and it is own by Facebook
WeChat	5	13		Use Google Firebase Analytics, Facebook Analytics, Facebook Login and Facebook Share
Skype	5	13		Use Google Firebase Analytics and Microsoft VS App Center Crashes, Microsoft VS App Center Analytics
Line	4	14	yes (phone number)	Use Google Analytics, Google AdMob, Facebook Login and Facebook Share
Telegram	2	15	yes (phone number)	Use Google Firebase Analytics and Microsoft VS App Center Crashes
Skype Lite	4	16		Use Google Firebase Analytics and Microsoft VS App Center Crashes, Microsoft VS App Center Analytics
Viber	10	16	yes (phone number)	Use Google Firebase Analytics, Google AdMob, Google CrashLytics, Twitter MoPub and Yandex Ad
Telegram X	3	17	yes (phone number)	Use Google Firebase Analytics and Google AdMob

Open Source Project to consider

Apps	Trackers	Potentially Dangerous Permissions	Require Pii	Note
Briar	0	2	no	Probably the best one for pseudo-anonymity.
Jitsi Meet	0	4	optional	Great alternative to Zoom
Nextcloud Talk	0	4	require login (username, email)	+ server side could be self-hosted
Jami	0	5	optional
Element	0	8	require login (username)	+ server side could be self-hosted
Linphone	0	9	yes (phone number)
Signal	0	19	yes (phone number)
Mattermost	1	3	require login (username)	+ server side could be self-hosted + could be use as a gateway to others services.
Wire	1	7	yes (email)

At the end, the best is to host your own Nextcloud and convince your friend to come on your Nextcloud Talk

[marcusquinn]

Someone just pinged me this link on Twitter, seems to be reasonable info:

• https://privacytools.io
• https://privacytools.io/software/real-time-communication

I saw someone saying the old "I have nothing to hide", although the obviously creep-ware that all these things do help hide is targeted advertising.

Who wants to be "targeted" and have others pay to directly target them with a calculation that makes it more probable to profit from that targeting?

Admittedly, I used to see this as legitimate business but the balance of cost and value to society doesn't seem to be in-line with efficiency and balance in relationships, so I'm personally backing away from all business that is dependent on paid advertising in preference for focusing on editorial value and self-challenging communities with a common interest in value over sales.

[mehdi]

@jodumont you comparison does not take into account whether or not the messages are encrypted. I personally think it's the most important feature to take into account.

Also, take a look at Olvid. I don't use it personally, but I heard good things.

[robi]

@jodumont thanks for the table!

for Mattermost, what is meant by 'gateway to other services' ? API integrations?

[robi]

@marcusquinn said in Best privacy chat apps:

Admittedly, I used to see this as legitimate business but the balance of cost and value to society doesn't seem to be in-line with efficiency and balance in relationships, so I'm personally backing away from all business that is dependent on paid advertising in preference for focusing on editorial value and self-challenging communities with a common interest in value over sales.

In another project we've come up with a business model that preserves privacy yet allows for getting paid for receiving advertising that is relevant to ones interests, if so desired.

If everyone participated, it would be akin to a UBI with abundance.

[d19dotca]

@marcusquinn said in Best privacy chat apps:

Who wants to be "targeted" and have others pay to directly target them with a calculation that makes it more probable to profit from that targeting?

As must as I hate any kind of privacy-invading workflows, I must confess that (specifically) targeted advertising doesn't really bother me much at all. The fact is those ads are going to be present in that spot on a webpage regardless of whether it's targeted or not. So why not at least show me relevant ads based on search keywords in the tool being used?

To me, the only time I get creeped out and think they've crossed a line for me at least is when they start getting overly sensitive to the ads (such as Facebook) where you're not just being targeted based on a couple of data points and instead you're being targeted based on like a 100+ different data points on data they ideally shouldn't even really have in the first place.

I think it's all a balancing act. Everyone's comfort level is a little different. Just my opinion anyways. But I totally hear ya on the "I have nothing to hide" point, those statements always irritate me when I hear them from people, shows they're completely missing the point when they say that, IMO.

[JOduMonT]

this table was for my own personal use

@mehdi said in Best privacy chat apps:

I personally think it's the most important feature to take into account.

this is true this feature should be considered,
but also who own the encryption key, the user or the provider ?

because most of these service yes you could encrypt a message but the provider (example Telegram) have the 2 keys so technically they could decrypt the message on the server side before forwarding it to the recipient.

Sometimes a function is just an umbrella to make a shadow theater where we are the puppet.

[JOduMonT]

@robi said in Best privacy chat apps:

for Mattermost, what is meant by 'gateway to other services' ? API integrations?

Yes; but I'm not a Mattermost expert

[JOduMonT]

@mehdi said in Best privacy chat apps:

Olvid

Olvid sound promessing, we cloud also talk about Threema which is more or less the same but developed in Switzerland. but at the end I took my list from AlternativeTo.net and took the top 10.

Beware most of VOIP use opportunistic encryption mainly because of issues with NAT so trusting a 3rd party for that is a big mistake for your privacy.

These days everything is secure like email aka the authentication use SSL than the message follow in clear text.

It would be interesting to find how/if Olvid encrypt their VOIP and which part ANSSI complement.
for now I only see the text message being encrypted.

[mehdi]

@jodumont I am of course only talking about good end-to-end encryption, like Signal or WhatsApp (yeah, WhatsApp has many flaws, mainly their owner, but they do have good encryption).

I don't know about Telegram's encryption, I never looked into it. I just know they don't use any by default (which, in itself, is bad)

[mehdi]

@jodumont about Olvid, from what I know, yes their calls are also encrypted, but they are only available for paid users.

[JOduMonT]

@mehdi said in Best privacy chat apps:

I don't know about Telegram's encryption, I never looked into it. I just know they don't use any by default (which, in itself, is bad)

we probably don't talk about the same phase of encryption, you seams focusing on the message (which obviously it is important) and I'm talking about the transfer

anyway good thing this forum is encrypted by a SSL

[mehdi]

@jodumont This table seems to be either outdated severly, or just plain wrong. Whatsapp does use end-to-end encryption, and has been using it for years.

[JOduMonT]

@mehdi said in Best privacy chat apps:

This table seems to be either outdated severly

fair enough

[jdaviescoates]

I came across a couple of nice chat comparisons recently.

First of all there is this nice infographic by niboe.info

Sadly I've been unable to find an English version of the other nice infographic in this accompanying article of theirs in Spanish.

I also came across this handy table from DivestOS (a privacy focused Android distribution):

https://divestos.org/index.php?page=messengers

Both of these make we wish Cloudron had an XMPP server like ejabberd so we could get our friends to try out Conversations and Movim (I mean, both Yunohost and HomeLabsOS have an XMPP server, and they are both fully open source and run by volunteers - whereas Cloudron is the one with a business model and full time paid @staff - and yet they've got XMPP and we don't! )