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I'm not particularly keen on this proposal (especially having read @nebulon's reasoning), but I would like the free tier to have unlimited users (even though in practice I bet the vast majority use less than the 20 users that are currently allowed).
This is for 2 reason:
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It's more tempting for people to try out and sounds like a much better deal even though most wouldn't take advantage of it (a bit like how mobile networks in the UK nearly always offer unlimited texts these days, knowing full well most people aren't going to spend their whole days texting - and of course actually having fair use in the small print)
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If you did have a team with 21 users you could actually fully properly use Cloudron with just two apps.
Indeed, I think all restrictions aside from the number of apps should be lifted in the free tier, e.g. it should also include a full mail server and let people assign roles too etc.
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I wish I could upvote this more..
@girish and I had this conversation a few times in the past years.
The current model has limited adoption mainly because admins don't get to experience enough depth of the system before hitting limits and getting "
turned off".They simply don't get to the AHA moment and the relief hindsight. Once their life changes because of how Cloudron works, they won't want to go back.
I think there is a threshold to reach before the irresistibility kicks in and you realize it is actually affordable and well worth the large pizza price (at least here in California).
@plusone-nick I love your idea of a one time update/upgrade, which may actually end up making them more money in the long run as needed updates come multiple times a month sometimes. (at which point it will be more cost effective to be on the sub).
There definitely needs to be a one-time option if not for upgrades, for some other temporal feature, so people can feel confident they are managing their finances in a simple way, when they have money to do so.
Let's change some lives, and show people the magic by letting them experience more of what we enjoy daily.
@robi Looks like its just you and I who like this idea lol! I understand everyone's concern of outdated systems & the extra support work it could lead to. It was more of a "its the free tier so its their problem to deal with" proceed at your own risk but fully rethinking it again that might be a good recipe for disaster, leaving people out to dry. There could be some use cases for "static" systems like in an isolated network but that's not common. Regardless appreciate everyone feedback and glad we can have a discussion without any issues. 🦾Cloudron
✌💙+1
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@robi Looks like its just you and I who like this idea lol! I understand everyone's concern of outdated systems & the extra support work it could lead to. It was more of a "its the free tier so its their problem to deal with" proceed at your own risk but fully rethinking it again that might be a good recipe for disaster, leaving people out to dry. There could be some use cases for "static" systems like in an isolated network but that's not common. Regardless appreciate everyone feedback and glad we can have a discussion without any issues. 🦾Cloudron
@plusone-nick thanks for bringing it up and promoting the discussion.
I am ambivalent on the pricing, and agree with the great points made about keeping systems updated and patched. Learning more about how some of those choices cause excessive problems is also eye opening.
My wish still stands for engineering an experience of more soak time and ability to see the difference in quality of life. From that perspective it's worth a lot more.
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@plusone-nick said in Proposal: Free-Tier Alterations
:Provide a one time "Update" subscription/service
Anything that encourages people to run outdated software for free sounds like a nightmare and irresponsible to me.
Sorry, but none of this makes any sense.
People pay $10/month for music and video subscription services where they never own the data.
$15/month for what can replace many other paid services is a time-waster filter in my opinion.
Decent System Admins are in the $50-250/hour range. I seriously think Cloudron is too cheap sometimes.
As far as I'm concerned the current pricing is very generous and accommodating for my needs.
I feel it is up to us as the larger network of experienced experts to champion the cause on other chatrooms, forums, social media and business contacts as to how happy we are with Cloudron and what great value it is.
Attracting more developers to app packaging also keeps increasing the value.
I'm trying to get some higher ticket clients onto it, that can then sponsor more of the enterprise types apps.
Maybe if we focus on getting more higher paying subscribes, that will create the economies of scale for a lower pricing on a home tier.
I hate limitations on software - but completely respect paying for luxury add-ons, security not being a luxury.
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@robi Looks like its just you and I who like this idea lol! I understand everyone's concern of outdated systems & the extra support work it could lead to. It was more of a "its the free tier so its their problem to deal with" proceed at your own risk but fully rethinking it again that might be a good recipe for disaster, leaving people out to dry. There could be some use cases for "static" systems like in an isolated network but that's not common. Regardless appreciate everyone feedback and glad we can have a discussion without any issues. 🦾Cloudron
@plusone-nick said in Proposal: Free-Tier Alterations
:It was more of a "its the free tier so its their problem to deal with" proceed at your own risk but fully rethinking it again that might be a good recipe for disaster, leaving people out to dry.
I'm glad you came around, this is definitely the better way to think about it. Sure, the license terms may say that you're on your own, no support etc; but users don't interact with license terms, they interact with your product. If someone has a bad time because of choices you enabled them to make with your product, somebody has to pay something ($, time, ...) to fix it, be it staff, the community, or even the product's reputation. I hope the team avoids going into future-support-debt in exchange for a short-term growth spurt.
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I'm not sure where all new users here are coming from - but I do bang on to as many devs as I can, and Tweet & Retweet @cloudron_io mentions whenever possible, so I hope a few have made it here from that.
I even one posted a "Job" on Upwork for people to package Apps on Cloudron - not because I needed anyone - but because I knew the posting would reach lots of developers and hopefully a few of them would look it and get involved anyway
Just shout loud and proud wherever we travel online about it.
I think the people smart enough to be visionary with the product are equally smart enough to make their business model sustainable.
gets off soapbox and goes back to very much enjoying working with the apps I discovered here
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How about we limit forum access until everyone has posted a 5
review on at least 2 public sites listing Cloudron as an option and upvoted all the others? -
@plusone-nick said in Proposal: Free-Tier Alterations
:Provide a one time "Update" subscription/service
Anything that encourages people to run outdated software for free sounds like a nightmare and irresponsible to me.
Sorry, but none of this makes any sense.
People pay $10/month for music and video subscription services where they never own the data.
$15/month for what can replace many other paid services is a time-waster filter in my opinion.
Decent System Admins are in the $50-250/hour range. I seriously think Cloudron is too cheap sometimes.
As far as I'm concerned the current pricing is very generous and accommodating for my needs.
I feel it is up to us as the larger network of experienced experts to champion the cause on other chatrooms, forums, social media and business contacts as to how happy we are with Cloudron and what great value it is.
Attracting more developers to app packaging also keeps increasing the value.
I'm trying to get some higher ticket clients onto it, that can then sponsor more of the enterprise types apps.
Maybe if we focus on getting more higher paying subscribes, that will create the economies of scale for a lower pricing on a home tier.
I hate limitations on software - but completely respect paying for luxury add-ons, security not being a luxury.
@marcusquinn said in Proposal: Free-Tier Alterations
:@plusone-nick said in Proposal: Free-Tier Alterations
:Provide a one time "Update" subscription/service
Anything that encourages people to run outdated software for free sounds like a nightmare and irresponsible to me.
Sorry, but none of this makes any sense.
Indeed and no worries, it was a half baked idea and that’s why I wanted to discuss it
People pay $10/month for music and video subscription services where they never own the data.
$15/month for what can replace many other paid services is a time-waster filter in my opinion.
I get it and you’re preaching to the choir lol as mentioned I don’t have any qualms with the price.
I just had someone on Reddit complain after I suggested Cloudron that’s it’s “too expensive”...I wanted to respond with the similar “15$ for Spotify” argument but value is more subjective than objective sometimes. I responded with “assuming you want to pay nothing?”The idea was to find a middle ground for those on the fence but they can stay up there I guess, you can’t make everyone happy
️✌💙+1
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@marcusquinn said in Proposal: Free-Tier Alterations
:@plusone-nick said in Proposal: Free-Tier Alterations
:Provide a one time "Update" subscription/service
Anything that encourages people to run outdated software for free sounds like a nightmare and irresponsible to me.
Sorry, but none of this makes any sense.
Indeed and no worries, it was a half baked idea and that’s why I wanted to discuss it
People pay $10/month for music and video subscription services where they never own the data.
$15/month for what can replace many other paid services is a time-waster filter in my opinion.
I get it and you’re preaching to the choir lol as mentioned I don’t have any qualms with the price.
I just had someone on Reddit complain after I suggested Cloudron that’s it’s “too expensive”...I wanted to respond with the similar “15$ for Spotify” argument but value is more subjective than objective sometimes. I responded with “assuming you want to pay nothing?”The idea was to find a middle ground for those on the fence but they can stay up there I guess, you can’t make everyone happy
️@plusone-nick It's all good - I did suggest at some point a lower cost tier for families to somehow encourage kids to get Cloudroning.
All great minds here, kinda like a free think-tank and experience market-research debate to save devs time.
I can see many ways to slice things - but ultimately, I think founder intuition is always going to be good and open, so it seems to me the current model has been good enough to get things to this point, and it's a free market that I haven't found anything better value in, so maybe others will either find the same or pay with their time instead of what's been good to all those already here.
Web Design https://www.evergreen.je
Development https://brandlight.org
Life https://marcusquinn.com -
@plusone-nick It's all good - I did suggest at some point a lower cost tier for families to somehow encourage kids to get Cloudroning.
All great minds here, kinda like a free think-tank and experience market-research debate to save devs time.
I can see many ways to slice things - but ultimately, I think founder intuition is always going to be good and open, so it seems to me the current model has been good enough to get things to this point, and it's a free market that I haven't found anything better value in, so maybe others will either find the same or pay with their time instead of what's been good to all those already here.
@marcusquinn Kids! we need a good writeup everywhere on how to run your own minecraft server the easy way.. the Cloudron way!
