pricing too high
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Hello
as maybe some before I would like to say about my dissatisfaction of the super high price for an "unlimited" version of CloudRon. Having a "home server" which doesnt make profit paying 30 bucks per month for me is really much.
Thats why I would like to suggest a subscription based model but like 5 bucks for 5 apps, 10 for 10 apps and so on? this would be way better for non-profiting students like me who cant afford 30 bucks per month.
Or maybe increase the free limit to 5 apps or something?Thanks for reading this suggestion!
The software itself is just aweome btw. -
- don’t pay by month - get an annual subscription
- it’s not about cost : it’s about time saved and knowledge gained. 15/30 bucks is cheap price for time saved, knowledge gained and productivity gained.
I understand money is important, but time knowledge productivity are more crucial.
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I think the price is fair if you set it into relation with the product quality and the support of it.
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I think that if you use it for professional/company related things, 30/15 is nothing. If you use it for personal stuff and fun, the 30 may be challenging, in case you have a budget of just a few bucks per month - but still its a fair price.
I'd only wish there would be some more options. Like 1-year-contract but still monthly payments. Something like 30 per month, 15/m for 1 year and maybe 20 or 18 per month payment but contracted for a whole year.
I understand that yearly subscriptions give more financial flexibility and better calculations for Cloudron. Maybe there's a chance to mix monthly payments and yearly subscriptions in the future.
Another good feature would be if Paypal payments would work right out of the box and without manual request. Cause that way everyone could deal with PayPal and pay monthly or later and Cloudron still gets the full payment instantly.
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@Stardenver monthly payments are convenient for the customer but they're a real pain for the business owner.
Even with repeat billing systems (Stripe, Paypal <yuk>) to do the hard work, even 1% of payments failing cost a lot of time to administer.
I've experienced this in business and with apps.
It really changes the dynamic, so I completely understand and support Cloudron's monthly/annual model.
With so much work for the Cloudron to do maintenance and development of the system and apps, and ever increasing requests for apps, the last thing the community should be asking them to add non-productive work like administering subscriptions.
Discussion of an intermediate tier between 2 and unlimited may be more valid, but I'd expect a similar differentiator between monthly and annual.
Time is money, both for business owner and for customer.
Customer does have to make decision : is this worth forking out a chunk of money for?
Well that's what the free tier is for. 2 apps concurrently, but you can test 50 (in sequence). It's enough to make the decision.
Just my 2p. -
Hello World!
I
Cloudron!@girish @nebulon @BrutalBirdie
Maybe have a look at reaper's pricing for inspiration.
Musicians/creatives are often broke in the beginning.
Thanks and keep up the good work folks!
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@timconsidine Totally getting your point. But I would still prefer some ootb PayPal payment support due to the flexibility it gives. Cloudron gets full payment and customer still can pay later or in monthly rates.
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We should all remember that there is a generous referral scheme in place :
For every paid user using your referral code, you will receive $30 service credits. The person you referred with get $30 service credits as well.That's one month off for each referral. For each person !
(2 even if you pay annually) -
@timconsidine oh.. if only I would have known
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@Stardenver Yep I get your point also
Maybe bear in mind that for many self-hosters (and Cloudron is all about self-hosting) PayPal is one of the "Big Evils"
Not sure if Cloudron already uses Paypal; if they do, then my point is invalid.Paypal is unregulated and their decisions defy logic or inspection or appeal.
Personally I refuse to use them, even if they are convenient to the consumer. -
@timconsidine From what I read here in the forums they do, but you have to ask support and they will send you a manual paypal payment request.
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The staff have mentioned in other posts that anything lower than $15/30 per month would cause them to lose money if the customer sends in ONE support ticket and that monthly subs cause a major accounting hassle for them.
I propose eliminating, or at the very least offer a single app limit for the free tier (for testing purposes; aka demo) and then offer a lower priced plan for homeservers that has a higher app/user limit (5, 7, 10, wtv) but can only be purchased yearly. It's how ultra-cheap shared hosting is sold (ex: $3/mo but paid yearly). That's less accounting for the staff and more money in their pockets. Bunny(.)net has a $1/mo minimum charge until you exceed certain limits regardless of how many of their services you are using. It's a genius price plan that's pulling in profits. Meanwhile, you have Cloudflare reporting "[losses] (https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/cloudflare-net-reports-q4-loss-tops-revenue-estimates-2021-02-11)" for Q4 2021.
The real brain teaser is that service providers using Cloudron for profit pay the same price as those that don't make any money off of Cloudron.
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@timconsidine said in pricing too high:
Maybe bear in mind that for many self-hosters (and Cloudron is all about self-hosting)
In spirit, maybe. In reality, Cloudron (and in extension, the CR community) caters to "developers" more than it does to the average Joe. Also, I've noticed many open source projects and developers continue to use big-tech and closed source software (Cloudflare, Google, Discord, Github, etc.). Screw big tech but is Paypal where we draw the line?
It just feels like cherry picking since the essence of self-hosting is to break away from big-tech and to preserve our data privacy and control.
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Many wish for a small tier like 10€/month for 5 Apps to lower the entry barrier for private usage. Compared to its value for business users, cloudron is unbelievably cheap.
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@humptydumpty said in pricing too high:
@timconsidine said in pricing too high:
Maybe bear in mind that for many self-hosters (and Cloudron is all about self-hosting)
In spirit, maybe. In reality, Cloudron (and in extension, the CR community) caters to "developers" more than it does to the average Joe. Also, I've noticed many open source projects and developers continue to use big-tech and closed source software (Cloudflare, Google, Discord, Github, etc.). Screw big tech but is Paypal where we draw the line?
It just feels like cherry picking since the essence of self-hosting is to break away from big-tech and to preserve our data privacy and control.
Well, while you are right with what you said I don't see any big difference between PayPal and your cc provider except the fact that with PP its just one company getting your data while cc payments involve 3 parties. So from that pov PP may even be more privacy friendly (just in comparison. PP isn't privacy friendly in general). Cloudron is using a payment solution and they will - of course - get all your data. Your card is from VISA or Mastercard and therefor they will also receive a lot of your data. Last but not least your bank which handed the card to you and fulfills the payment. Don't know about your country but here in Germany a lot of people use debit cards instead of credit cards and therefor every payment requires a back-check with your bank-account and even though you may be using a real cc, a lot of data will be shared and saved from every of those 3 parties.
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As was already said here to some extent, the goal for us is not to spend much time on accounting and invoicing, but rather work on the product. This mostly means that we keep payment options limited to something which may not be preferred by all people, but is somewhat ok for most. We have basic PayPal option as a fallback if a customer does not have a credit card, but this is not the default. Again this is mostly to keep the time spent on accounting as low as possible. This is also the main reason why we do not want to offer smaller amounts per month at the moment, as any transaction for a start adds extra cost (stripe, cc, tax accounting, ... ) and is prone to failure where we then need to manually follow up.
Generally I guess one can put it as: our business is in enabling self-hosting, not working in accounting. Already choosing stripe is not ideal but a somewhat okish tradeoff so far to not having to reinvent the wheel in an area which is not the product.
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@nebulon What about a lower priced plan with less app/user limit but is billed annually? Basically, a non-business plan that targets home servers.
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@NoMan-0 If you look at CLoudron as a course in self-hosting too, that you can also increase your employment value with, then it might be quite a bit cheaper than any other traditional course
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@nebulon said in pricing too high:
the goal for us is not to spend much time on accounting and invoicing, but rather work on the product.
our business is in enabling self-hosting, not working in accounting
Even if you (Cloudron) would become much more attractive by lowering the barrier for small groups and (single) private users? The field were small self hosting has a real impact because business users have much more options and ressources. 17$ for Cloudron, 8$ for a VPS, 4$ for backup = ~30$/month....not reasonable for single users and also a hurdle for smaller teams/non profits. If you are doing business and involve Cloudron, the price is ridiculously low because support is already included.
The free plan is good for evaluation, development and understanding the product but for productive use limited to two apps, it is not reasonable (in most cases) to run a whole server with it.
For a smaller plan you could:
- cut direct support
- only offer yearly plans
- limit app use (obvious) to....I would say 5-7
- lower referral credits to a price that equals 1 month (for both)
- price something between 7-11$ which equals to 84-132$/year...how about 99$?
To end my point: I know I asked this already but if accounting is a pain and you (both) have to focus on development AND support....why not hire someone (part time) to do all the accounting/billing/contracting and maybe communications too? It's not that hard of a job and even if it costs more then you would earn from it, you would save yourself the stress/pain which is, in the end, much more beneficial to yourself AND the product.
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I'm very lucky because Cloudron is basically free for me.
How?
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a special half-price for life deal was offered in New Year 2020. I used that deal to get $15/mo price paid monthly.
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I've referred over 40 paying customers, so I have loads of credits.
For ages now, those credits and paid for my Cloudron(s) and I still have $249 of credit left
I'm a happy bunny
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To no-one in particular, I think we should stop telling Cloudron how to run their business.
Cloudron is astoundingly good value on the annual plan and still good value on the monthly plan.
Hosting costs don't come under the same scrutiny, nor (probably) any form of 'why don't change your pricing model'.
If anyone is going to use the product for >6 months, just take the annual plan and get resourceful about how to fund it.
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@timconsidine said in pricing too high:
If anyone is going to use the product for >6 months, just take the annual plan and get resourceful about how to fund it.
well said, for all the services one can offer with cloudron, or even just a single web page for affilliate marketing, it pays for itself.
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Are you guys seriously suggesting home server owners rent out services from HOME just to pay for a premium license?
We're asking for a home server license pricing. No one's arguing that Cloudron is too expensive for business use.
I'll echo what I said before..
@humptydumpty said in pricing too high:
Cloudron (and in extension,the CR community) caters to "developers" more than it does to the average Joe.
but I can see I'm beating a dead horse.
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@humptydumpty I don't. But I think that 15 per month is a very very fair price. Like I said before, I just wish there would be more flexibility in payment options.
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@humptydumpty said in pricing too high:
Are you guys seriously suggesting home server owners rent out services from HOME just to pay for a premium license?
I wasn't suggesting that.
Min price annually is $15 p/m and monthly $30 p/m.
So difference is $15 p/m which is $3.50 p/week.
All I was saying is that if paying monthly is important to someone, be resourceful and e.g. sacrifice a latte per week. Either to fund the monthly tier or build up a fund for the annual.But it may be me who is beating a dead horse so I will shut up now.
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Won't be long before you can't buy a latte for $15. Cloudron's been getting cheaper, in real terms, for years now.
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Honestly, I am going to echo what has already been said. I do think the pricing is a bit too steep if you are just using Cloudron for personal use. Plus, the lack of payment options is pretty frustrating since I lack a credit card and mainly use paypal.
But ya, $15 per month for the annual subscription is a ton of money since in my case I probably would only use one additional app, or two at most. It's one of the reasons I just have never bothered with the subscription. It would be nice to be able to use more than 2, but it's just not worth it.
I wouldn't even mind paying a lot of money up front one time (like $100 or so) if it meant permanently increasing the limit to 5, and anything above that would still require the subscription.
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Sadly, cloudron has to adjust their pricing for the future.
The unlimited plan with support included is currently a freaking steal even for home server users.As it stands, $15 a month is a no brainer if you are looking to regain your own privacy.
I know @staff are not in the business of accounting, but it is an aspect of all businesses that can not be overlooked.
From how I see it, there is several turnkey systems for which different payment models can change.
Cost per app
Charging for a specific amount of apps to be used
2, 5, 10, etcetraCost for support
Community based support vs company provided support with different levels of priorityMulti-cloudron support
Being able to support your cloudrons across multiple servers from one placeThe simplest method would really be to charge by app.
Doing this would allow for larger profits from cloudron and allow the respective customer confirm that cloudron is the right platform for them.The payment gateway used isn’t a concern, or shouldn’t be. Because unless you are paying in cash/crypto (which I wouldn’t advise for a cloudron as there is way too much overhead with that) your information will be used to pay.
But according to cloudrons privacy policy, that information isn’t gathered, stored, or collected.
So if you have a PayPal already or a CC or a DC, then you have already shared that information with the respective authorities.In terms of how much to charge for each app collection, I’m not sure.
I do think that at $15/unlimited apps it’s a freaking steal.I personally think raising the prices and altering the plans would allow for additional staff as well as even start paying for app maintainers from the community to help build apps and support them.
Lastly. I just want to say how much I have loved cloudron since starting to use them so many years ago.
Thank you!! -
I bet if they start charging per app, like pikapods, they'd lose an entirely different set of currently paying customers. If I had to pay per app like some other services, personally, I'd be paying minimum $34 min a month, and you know... bye bye for me. Plus, those other services other these free open source apps on their own servers... bye bye to my data autonomy. And for businesses, that would just complicate their billing... bye bye ease.
For those who say they'd only run 3 or 4 apps or up to 7, on a homeserver, there are already options out there that will work out to less than Cloudron's $15 (Yunohost and Caprover are free). But you won't get Cloudron's quality nor reliability. And some of these, as a I mentioned, are not run on your server, but on theirs.
Suddenly, Cloudron's price should be looking really really
goodto you.Not to mention that the crowd that was mentioned - the homeserver crowd - tends to come with all kinds of niche problems to this forum. At least that's my perspective. So imagine, Cloudron lowers their prices so that ppl can run 5 apps and then are overrun with scads of support requests... their income is going to drop, and quality of service, and time spent developing Cloudron, etc. Homeserver users used to be fairly knowledgeable techies, and they wouldn't even dream of using someone else's service... they'd spin up their own solution with the open source apps out there! Lately, they seem to be ppl trying to save a buck, and are more hobbyists (not trying to make a profit). That is perfectly fine! But that crowd ain't gonna pay the bills and salaries of top-notch ppl running Cloudron.
I just hope that Cloudron also has a good base of enterprise customers. Don't tell us though! I just hope you do because you deserve to be making bank with Cloudron. It is awesome. Don't listen to ppl asking for cheaper - they have options already. Stay true to your Cloudron course!
A life lived in fear is a life half-lived
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@scooke said in pricing too high:
I bet if they start charging per app, like pikapods, they'd lose an entirely different set of currently paying customers. If I had to pay per app like some other services, personally, I'd be paying minimum $34 min a month, and you know... bye bye for me. Plus, those other services other these free open source apps on their own servers... bye bye to my data autonomy. And for businesses, that would just complicate their billing... bye bye ease.
For those who say they'd only run 3 or 4 apps or up to 7, on a homeserver, there are already options out there that will work out to less than Cloudron's $15 (Yunohost and Caprover are free). But you won't get Cloudron's quality nor reliability. And some of these, as a I mentioned, are not run on your server, but on theirs.
Suddenly, Cloudron's price should be looking really really
goodto you.Not to mention that the crowd that was mentioned - the homeserver crowd - tends to come with all kinds of niche problems to this forum. At least that's my perspective. So imagine, Cloudron lowers their prices so that ppl can run 5 apps and then are overrun with scads of support requests... their income is going to drop, and quality of service, and time spent developing Cloudron, etc. Homeserver users used to be fairly knowledgeable techies, and they wouldn't even dream of using someone else's service... they'd spin up their own solution with the open source apps out there! Lately, they seem to be ppl trying to save a buck, and are more hobbyists (not trying to make a profit). That is perfectly fine! But that crowd ain't gonna pay the bills and salaries of top-notch ppl running Cloudron.
I just hope that Cloudron also has a good base of enterprise customers. Don't tell us though! I just hope you do because you deserve to be making bank with Cloudron. It is awesome. Don't listen to ppl asking for cheaper - they have options already. Stay true to your Cloudron course!
I am not necessarily saying pay per app, but pay for number of apps active at a time.
For example - Free: 2 apps, 5 USD: 5 Apps, 10 USD: 15 apps, 15 USD unlimited.
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@scooke said in pricing too high:
Don't listen to ppl asking for cheaper - they have options already. Stay true to your Cloudron course!
If they can't afford it, then they shouldn't buy it or try to ruin it for those who are happy to pay for it.
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I have made some suggestions privately on having 6 tiers of pricing, that would be relative to the value to each user-type.
The open forum here is great for gathering all those user stories.
I think then we just have to respect it also takes a significant amount of time and cost/benefit analysis to make any pricing changes in an established business, since all change affects different needs, differently.
We're not here for a long time - but we are here for a good time :)
Jersey/UK
Work & Ecommerce Advice: https://brandlight.org
Personal & Software Tips: https://marcusquinn.com -
@marcusquinn said in pricing too high:
I think then we just have to respect it also takes a significant amount of time and cost/benefit analysis to make any pricing changes in an established business, since all change affects different needs, differently.
Also coding time.
At present there is no Cloudron code that makes it possible for staff charge different amounts for different amounts of apps.
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@timconsidine said in pricing too high:
@scooke said in pricing too high:
Don't listen to ppl asking for cheaper - they have options already. Stay true to your Cloudron course!
If they can't afford it, then they shouldn't buy it or try to ruin it for those who are happy to pay for it.
No one wants to ruin anything for those who are happy to pay for it. Asking for more options hurts no one.
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I use cloudron for less than a month and it already saves me money. More than that, allowing unilmited apps, gave me the chance to test if Superset is better than Redash for my use case, or self-hosted UptimeKuma could replace my paid HetrixTools. It is a perfect piece of software for a professional. Predictable, stable, observable, intuitive, I used it from day one without ever reading the f* manual!
For people like me, cloudron is beyond cheap. It is a steal.
On the other hand, I am a 50 year old, IT pro, european citizen. I understand that 180/y is a considerable budget for students, activists, hobbyists, or anyone whose currency is weak compared to dollar.
My opinion: There are features that professionals would pay for. For example, multi-cloudron HA setup for RabbitMQ, one-click database setup with automated backups. If cloudron offered the posibility to setup base infrastracture (databases, queues, webservers) as a premium service, I would easily pay much much more than I do now. Give us the oportunity to simplify our deployments, and give students or non-professional users more generous free tiers!
I repeat, I use cloudron for less than a month. Making a yearly contract was a no brainer, I would happily pay twice as much for what I already use. I safely gave cloudron a chance because of its free tier. A generous free tier is an important selling point and should not be reconsidered. What is already offered for the current price is already established and should stay fixed. Offer more premium features and ask for extra money for these features. Compensate for these higher prices with increased quotas for qualified free-tier users.
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I reckon Cloudron saves me something like 500 hours a year from having to do the same without it. It's what Plesk should have been!
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For those that cannot afford it for whatever reason, consider offering services in return, say packaging or marketing or referrals for which the team can respond in kind.
What else does @staff appreciate?
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@robi Excellent answer! Another great use of the Affiliate program, and value of building the community and social media awareness.
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I think @NoMan-0 is no more: https://forum.cloudron.io/user/noman-0
Hit n run post, but the Cloudron hive-mind evolves more answers from every question.
We're not here for a long time - but we are here for a good time :)
Jersey/UK
Work & Ecommerce Advice: https://brandlight.org
Personal & Software Tips: https://marcusquinn.com -
