Focus on Business Apps
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Oh I forgot I made this back in June, the last time this bothered me.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Y08UdmmCqgwQcZyIqQW0XcYgxZ1Dne9ix9QT7XogcEs/edit?gid=0#gid=0
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@timconsidine one gap is the public-voting / roadmap app Fider, or similar!
#dogfood -
@eddowding +1 for Fider. That would be a much better system for voting.
@timconsidine But the votes are just a quarter of the real problem. I don't recall who but someone from the Cloudron team clearly stated that in selecting the apps you were integrating, an important point for taking your decision was how easy it is to maintain.
The main issue that Cloudron is solving is making management for self-hosted apps easy... I just think you guys are rerouting from your main objective and it's disappointing.
With all the respect I have for the Cloudron team, I think you are not as good marketers as you are developers.
Inflation is at its highest... Businesses are trying to save on cost where they can and the open source industry is booming. You have THE SOLUTION to help millions of businesses to save money but you don't move a finger.
The AI industry is also booming, businesses are looking for affordable solutions to automate their processes and one of those solutions is n8n, which you have and it's great... But multiple modules are required to be self-hosted like a scraper (FireCrawl is the best right now) and there are plenty of amazing agentic platforms (Flowise is a popular one) around that can help businesses create Chatbots to automate their customer support.
I think you should definitely evaluate what the market wants, and create a strategy for the apps you are adding instead of adding some random apps from time to time. You need a STRATEGY.
I am a marketer and built many SaaS so my vision may be different than some users here but my point is valid and if you think about it, you will agree with me.
I am also a business owner and like any CEO, I want to save money on my infrastructure and Cloudron has been a game-changer for me. The only con is the amount of business-focused apps to help me scale my infrastructure at an affordable price.
Some ideas that you could implement to set up a strategy:
- Voting system (You do already but use a better platform and take it more seriously)
- Look at trending repos (monthly period) on GitHub and spot the projects that get a lot of attention. Those popular projects will bring you customers because so many people want to host them but don't have the knowledge to do it. To name a few:
- Twenty CRM
- Plane Task Management
- Autogen (Their next version will be FIRE... Probably the best autonomous AI agent platform)
- Look on Reddit the self-hosted section to see what apps are popular
etc...
I have looked for an alternative, and to be honest, none are as good as Cloudron and it's why I want you to push your solution to a higher level. The same boring answer comes again and again: "We have limited resources" but just hire more staff. More customers = more revenues.
You could even change your business models to include Cloudron for free for personal apps, and charge a higher price for business apps (like 25$/m). Then you tag your apps as personal or business usage.
I think you need to revise your business model. You have demands and if you fail to meet your user's requirements, then you will miss on a big opportunity to make more money.
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@igaudette said in Focus on Business Apps:
@eddowding +1 for Fider. That would be a much better system for voting.
I agree to with this! Seeing another solution where suggestions are prioritized for apps vs voting in the forum would be helpful.
I realize all of the priorities with the platform itself, but for me to continue to show ROI vs some of the platforms coming out, I do need some additional business-based apps.
Since I became a customer there has been a ton of work done and Cloudron has come a long way and I appreciate everything done by the team. But I do feel there needs to be a better system like Fiddler to vote and prioritize apps.
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I do agree that as a paid customer I feel voting in the forum is a waste of time and also more and more of my questions in various topics are just not answered or the priority/ backlog is not visible to us so it feels like it's going nowhere.
I've seen several topics and complains like this very one but staff gives an impression of being too busy to improve and that's a red flag which becomes very visible to customers, so I Believe more transparency and action is needed or making it more easy for existing customers to contribute more apps and influence the strategy through a serious app voting system.
I stopped suggesting apps to the wishlist because the existing apps in wishlist are waiting for too long without any follow up like nobody from the staff cares anymore. And I want to think I'm wrong. -
Imagine being able to post something for Satya Nadella and fully expect him to read it, respond to it, and act on it! Or most other CEOs! It's taken the Cloudron team at least 8 years to get to this point, and if you look beyond the apps available, the infrastructure is simply amazing. Yes, it seems simple to add more... everyone supplies Docker images... but have you ever looked inside one? My goodness, there is no "one method" that makes any given Docker image work. Then the Cloudron team has to figure out how to integrate it into the Cloudron ecosystem (and then adapt on the fly as the CEOs of those other apps revamp everything in their next update!)
Getting to these complicated business and AI apps... have you written to the maintainers/CEOs of those to demand that they simplify their Docker apps so that they are easier to get up and running? You should.
FWIW, their business page, https://www.cloudron.io/business.html, lays out what Cloudron aims to do. I think it is succeeding. Nowhere does it say, "will jump when users say jump and code any requested app, no matter the difficulty or challenge of integration into the existing 'compliant, secure and flexible' Cloudron system." Personally, I've always found it funny that so many of the Requested Apps come from the Cloudron team!
Like I've said before, go ahead, go try some other vendor and you will see just how incredible Cloudron is. Others will either be way too pricey for what you get (and pricier when you want more), and you will find NO help for problems, no matter what payment tier you are in.
I would add that if the Cloudron business page, or elsewhere, promised that they will make any and all requested apps available as part of the payment then perhaps a complaint is warranted. They promise "timely updates", "latest releases and security fixes", "production ready apps".. check, check and check. The recently updated banner shows some pretty good and business-appropriate apps, too.
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Your post seem to imply we ignore the hard work, but what I think is rather the customers are concerned with staff priorities and worry of the status quo or regression in quality.
There are currently thousands of topics in the wishlist section and no way to see clearly if any will be on the roadmap in the future. If you then compare with how many apps are in the app store it means it would take decades before current wishlist can even partially be addressed.
The staff also mentioned they have more work so cannot deliver interesting apps or apps requiring more complex setup, which raise the natural concern of the customers who see bugs being introduced and dont see more popular apps be included.
So yeah Cloudron has an incredible value but wouldn't be nice to be able for customers to have more influence at least the apps to be picked? Or at least to cleanup the wishlist from the apps that are waiting for too long in the forum to at least not create false hopes.
And as you say packaging Cloudron apps is a challenge but then what is done to simplify this or to call for contributors?
What is done to motivate more customers? Even the referral program was cancelled.
There is of course lot of work around quality and maintenance of apps. This is I believe understood by the customers but yet doesn't invalide the complaints. -
@scooke Cloudron is great. We love it. That's why we're here.
And we care for it, too. That's why we speak up.
@girish - you and Johannes have our full support and appreciation. Do drop me (or many others here) a line if you'd like to talk more fluidly about how Cloudron's second decade can be even better — and crucially even more lucrative so as to support the mission.
Update: Related idea - might AI help with packaging? https://forum.cloudron.io/topic/12862/using-ai-to-build-a-package
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@scooke I totally agree with your points. And I was critical of the lack of business applications. But doing things right (as the Cloudron team always does) is more important than anything else.
Perhaps this is more a process or communication issue. For example, how are new apps chosen for inclusion in the platform? What are the ongoing responsibilities and difficulties of sustaining any particular application?
And lastly, I would be willing to pay more so that the Cloudron team can add resources to accomplish more. That being said, sometimes growing is not the right answer as other things change (and not for the better).
But when you experience a good thing, it is only natural to want more if it, n'est ce pas:)?
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@SansGuidon said in Focus on Business Apps:
There are currently thousands of topics in the wishlist
1,600 to be precise --- with the top-voted Wireguard now being open for 5 years!
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@girish and @nebulon have created Cloudron to scratch an itch and make a living out of it.
Not everyone needs or wants to scale, even if you yourself want them to help you make bigger business.I also don't expect them to publicly talk about their business here, that's not how they have operated these past years. (See for example this 158 posts topic with exactly 0 post from them)
But I'm pretty sure they are reading, so hi!
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@ruihildt said in Focus on Business Apps:
See for example this 158 posts topic with exactly 0 post from them
Incorrect!
https://forum.cloudron.io/post/10861
https://forum.cloudron.io/post/11131 -
I’ve been less active in the Cloudron forums recently (sorry), but still use Cloudron daily for my freelance business. While I’m not a large business, I do like to act and think like one when it comes to hosting services, so I saw this post and wanted to add some thoughts.
With a business perspective, I would prefer the focus to be on infrastructure features rather than adding more apps for now. I think business-focused features such as 1️⃣ allowing multiple backup locations with custom retention rules, 2️⃣ better spam IP blocking with managed IP lists via URLs, 3️⃣ improved spam filtering in mail, and 4️⃣ syncing a secondary Cloudron instance with the primary Cloudron instance for either load balancing or failover… I consider these to all be very important features that most businesses would consider critical before investing big into Cloudron. And these are just off the top of my head as hopeful features to see added soon. For some of these I know users like me have been waiting for years. The good news is I believe there is some movement for the backup improvements soon.
These features are very important, especially for medium to large businesses that prioritize uptime. I’d absolutely love to see various apps added sooner than later too (such as some of the website analytics apps), don’t get me wrong, but I think for me at least they’re less important than adding resiliency and business feature sets. And heck, the improved spam filtering / blocking would be helpful not only for businesses but personal users too.
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Great points, well made @d19dotca.
It seems that this need not be a zero-sum game. We're talking about increasing the fan-base, quality, and benefits of something which is already great.
1. Minimal trade-offs: With a solid, values-led strategy, and well considered incentive structures to reward merit and quality, there need be no trade-offs;
2. Fewer competing priorities: by growing the active contributor base it should be feasible to deliver many things in parallel, thereby making the "but what to prioritise?" debate less of a priority
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Lots of good words & thoughts in this thread, but still a lack of specificity.
WHICH business app should be the focus of packaging effort ?
Or which top 3 ?
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@timconsidine said in Focus on Business Apps:
p should be the focus of packaging effort ?
Hi Tim,
I think we (Cloudron users) may have many different business types, so our needs may be different. You already have some good foundation apps and it's a great start!
An application that I think everyone will agree with me, that is part of any online business nowadays is a CRM. I think the most promising CRM right now are Twenty and ERPNext. I know you have already Dolibarr and Espo CRM but those are a bit outdated and lack modern features. For me, the most promising is Twenty CRM but I know ERPNext is a big favorite in the self-hosted community.
But IMHO where Cloudron is lacking the most right now is in innovative solutions that can have a BIG IMPACT on businesses. I'm making reference to AI-related platforms. AI is currently changing the world and as a business owner, we can't ignore it... We need to start integrating it into our processes ASAP. A few platforms are Langflow, Flowise, Autogen & Crew AI.
And to conclude, more no-code/low-code platforms such as Budibase or Appsmith.
Agentic, No-code/Low-code, and more CRMs. Those are the kind of apps that can truly helps a business to scale and that would be amazing to see Cloudron supporting these apps soon.
To conclude, I would like also to mention Plane as a new innovative self-hosted project management tool that has a lot of potential. For a business, project management tools are expensive and the options offered right now are a bit outdated.
This goes to MY OPINION. Some will agree with my priorities, some may have different ones. I think this is why this is very important to have a better voting system so we can figure out the real interests as the current way to vote is not convenient and hard to keep track of it.
Btw, thanks for taking the time to read our feedback... This thread wasn't meant to talk bad about Cloudron. We love Cloudron and support you 100% guys. I would just like to see Cloudron supporting more business users. As a business, it's hard to scale as subscriptions continue to go up (Currently paying ~2k/m in subscriptions) and I'm at a point in my business where I need to find a way to minimize my costs, and this is why I fall in love with Cloudron and don't bother paying more for a subscription if it can help me save hundreds of dollars in subscriptions monthly.
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@igaudette said in Focus on Business Apps:
With all the respect I have for the Cloudron team, I think you are not as good marketers as you are developers.
No, they are NOT marketers at all and, well this imho, not even much business oriented at all either I even wonder if they understand marketing. No offence intended I too respect the team and its work VERY much, but unfortunately in general this is the proper of the majority of developers even though they're among the bests. I wonder if only they have any idea of HOW to market Cloudron efficiently.
I can relate because I'm doing marketing and business online for almost 25 years, in the software and hosting industry and been part of the team that contributed to the marketing and rapid EXPANSION of cPanel when it got out.
At the time we literally revolutionised the web hosting business industry because this was the first GUI created that would allow a MUCH larger crowd of people out there the much simplified capacity of hosting one's website and hence install a presence online on the web without having the much deeper technical knowledge to do so before the advent of cPanel. That was circa 2005, I was already hosting website the old way through the use of CLI and FTP etc. But cPanel had totally changed the game not only by helping to provide hosting services much faster and in an much easier manner, but also expand more rapidly by providing training and allowing clients to host themselves while being able to accomplish simple maintenance tasks that they wouldn't have been able, or wouldn't dare to do before cPanel. And even so, many have become Web Hosting Providers thanks to cPanel and have made new careers and fed their family and even became very comfortable financially, the industry just EXPLODED.
When I discovered Cloudron in 2019 I started to use it immediately, I fell off my chair I thought really that could be the new cPanel alike REVOLUTION but "in the cloud" and with a higher level of easiness to manage and privacy and security, to not just hosting websites but also an amazing array of apps that a LOT of people and businesses need, all of a single click. I'd already explored many other panels out there and solutions with Docker, Kuberneties, and Portainer etc. but man, there was nothing like Cloudron, yet, and still.
You can imagine I contacted the guys here. I've made MANY proposals, suggested several ideas and even privately revealed some of my secret plans for marketing and getting clients at scale to no end, unless the world explodes. All along with several technical suggestion for the platform to make it marketable at scale like crazy etc. I'll keep it brief, but now we're almost 2025 and here we are... They never give any kind of feedback, nor intention it's like talking to ghosts loll okay not that much but when they're seem to maybe have an open mind on something then that is all there is though, an intention until now, and never went any further... It's pretty hard to know what they think and what they really want to achieve at any level. I respect that, it's their way of doing things and they'll get the results that goes along.
Now, sadly I can't wait forever and now I'm like many of the power users here and I start to look elsewhere too, not because there's not enough apps on Cloudron, no it's been a long time there's enough, it's only that nothing goes nowhere, and in the actual state of how Cloudron is implemented for deployment there's NO WAY to create the momentum we created for cPanel in the past. And, at the moment to access and use the very popular apps emerging that are getting dust on before to get onto Cloudron, I use EasyPanel which IS, a very interesting choice as an 'alternative' to host what's not yet supported by Cloudron.
Cheers!
Ignorance is not an excuse anymore!
https://AutomateKit.com -
@igaudette said in Focus on Business Apps:
But IMHO where Cloudron is lacking the most right now is in innovative solutions that can have a BIG IMPACT on businesses. I'm making reference to AI-related platforms. AI is currently changing the world and as a business owner, we can't ignore it... We need to start integrating it into our processes ASAP. A few platforms are Langflow, Flowise, Autogen & Crew AI.
OpenWeb UI and N8N are absolutely great and POWERFUL apps that CAN be definitely be used by an Agency or freelancer to use and develop complete Automation with AI solutions with Agents, Chatbots even with RAG and Pipeline and MUCH more... And I've yet to talking about Chatwoot and Typebot so there are plenty of very good powerful amazing apps in those field, I mean enough at least to feed your hunger they may be not your preferred ones that you'd want to have right now, but on Cloudron the offer in that sector is very well filled imho.
