Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?
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@nebulon I can't speak for @jdaviescoates, but I would point out just 4 benefits:
- Greater Contributions. With a source available, but proprietary license, anyone who contributes a bug fix or feature immediately loses license to their own work, or at least would have to in order for Cloudron to be able to enforce its license and copyright. Aside from the potential legal mess, this is almost certainly a deterrent to substantial outside contributions. An open source license makes Cloudron much more enticing to contribute to.
- Benefits of Broad Adoption. Those willing to do the work to run their own Cloudron instance from the source code may have been loud, but they weren't likely customers to begin with. While not paying, these potential users do offer some benefits. They're more likely to provide good bug reports, patches, and answers to community questions. Even while promoting the free use of Cloudron, they are reaching an audience you would otherwise have to pay to reach. Even if the vast majority of users were to use Cloudron for free, as I suspect the majority of Nextcloud users do, in volume it really becomes a net benefit to Cloudron.
- Long-Term Assurance. The choice to self-host one's own infrastructure can be stressful. It becomes less stressful when you know that the software your using is open source and will be viable as long as there is a community willing to keep it going. This is one reason open source users become such loud advocates. They want that thriving community to live on forever, in a way they can't necessarily ensure a company will.
- Part of a Bigger Cause. I like you @nebulon and @girish. I like what you have made, and I hope you succeed, probably more so than most companies I buy products/services from. But at the end of the day you are a company. People like companies, they support causes. It's hard for me to express how when Cloudron went from open source to proprietary it changed my feelings. I still tell people about it and have tried to make important strategic introductions. But I don't donate my time to Cloudron like I do Inkscape. I don't extol the virtues of Cloudron over all other proprietary solutions, like I do Nextcloud. Supporting a company selling a proprietary solution is just not the same as supporting a company that is part of a bigger cause. Cloudron has the potential to be part of that cause. I want it to be open source.
Addendum: This is all said with full awareness that you need and deserve to get paid. Don't listen to anyone who expects anything otherwise. For the reasons stated above, and others, I think you can still make a living and perhaps even a better living releasing software with an open source license.
There are many advantages to open source, but if I could point the most important to me in this case, it would be this one already mentioned by @ryangorley:
- Long-Term Assurance. The choice to self-host one's own infrastructure can be stressful. It becomes less stressful when you know that the software your using is open source and will be viable as long as there is a community willing to keep it going. This is one reason open source users become such loud advocates. They want that thriving community to live on forever, in a way they can't necessarily ensure a company will.
Whether I'm contributing apps or fixes as a:
- User (because I use Cloudron for my personal needs)
- Company (because I deploy Cloudron to my customers)
- App Author (because I want my app to be available in Cloudron)
I don't want my investment (
+ 
) to go to waste if Cloudron UG (the company), in the future:- decides to change its terms in a certain way that don't fit my needs (or that I simply can't afford money-wise)
- is bought out by a company that has a different approach/view
- simply goes under
And to top it off, I would have to abruptly migrate all my apps to a different platform, costing me even more
+ .But I still wish the best to the Cloudron team, which is doing an amazing job!
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There are many advantages to open source, but if I could point the most important to me in this case, it would be this one already mentioned by @ryangorley:
- Long-Term Assurance. The choice to self-host one's own infrastructure can be stressful. It becomes less stressful when you know that the software your using is open source and will be viable as long as there is a community willing to keep it going. This is one reason open source users become such loud advocates. They want that thriving community to live on forever, in a way they can't necessarily ensure a company will.
Whether I'm contributing apps or fixes as a:
- User (because I use Cloudron for my personal needs)
- Company (because I deploy Cloudron to my customers)
- App Author (because I want my app to be available in Cloudron)
I don't want my investment (
+ ) to go to waste if Cloudron UG (the company), in the future:- decides to change its terms in a certain way that don't fit my needs (or that I simply can't afford money-wise)
- is bought out by a company that has a different approach/view
- simply goes under
And to top it off, I would have to abruptly migrate all my apps to a different platform, costing me even more
+ .But I still wish the best to the Cloudron team, which is doing an amazing job!
@gabrielcossette If you can't afford Cloudron, you probably have bigger problems.
I'm an open-source first person too, but the source code is available, so I think that the reasoning is that the current team need to focus more on development than discussion, and open-source comes with a lot of admin overhead for discussion and rights-management.
I'm sure that will change in future, but probably just easier just not to get involved in all of that for now if we want all the main wish-list development things done any time soon.
Web Design https://www.evergreen.je
Development https://brandlight.org
Life https://marcusquinn.com -
@gabrielcossette If you can't afford Cloudron, you probably have bigger problems.
I'm an open-source first person too, but the source code is available, so I think that the reasoning is that the current team need to focus more on development than discussion, and open-source comes with a lot of admin overhead for discussion and rights-management.
I'm sure that will change in future, but probably just easier just not to get involved in all of that for now if we want all the main wish-list development things done any time soon.
@marcusquinn said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:
@gabrielcossette If you can't afford Cloudron, you probably have bigger problems.
Maybe I didn't word it correctly, but that's not what I meant. I wanted to express that Cloudron terms and pricing could change in the future, in a way that could not be appropriate anymore for some users. And as the platform is not open source, you have no choice than migrating to a different platform.
It's all about risk management.
Personally, I find it too risky to host all my digital infrastructure on a platform that doesn't provide a good exit strategy.[...] open-source comes with a lot of admin overhead for discussion and rights-management.
As long as you manage expectations, you can do open source and not burn you out.
You could state: "Hey, feel free to use the code, ask questions and make contributions, but as our team has limited resources (for now), we can't make any promise regarding support. Also, if you are interested in reliable support, check out our commercial offer.
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J jdaviescoates referenced this topic on
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Looks like someone else has a neat FOSS Cloudron alternative to compare and run a few apps missing here: https://github.com/meienberger/runtipi
Web Design https://www.evergreen.je
Development https://brandlight.org
Life https://marcusquinn.com -
Looks like someone else has a neat FOSS Cloudron alternative to compare and run a few apps missing here: https://github.com/meienberger/runtipi
@marcusquinn Perhaps their dockerfiles help with packaging here or at least easier adoption from pure code sources.
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Looks like someone else has a neat FOSS Cloudron alternative to compare and run a few apps missing here: https://github.com/meienberger/runtipi
@marcusquinn said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:
Looks like someone else has a neat FOSS Cloudron alternative to compare and run a few apps missing here: https://github.com/meienberger/runtipi
Quite a few similar things have been shared in various posts on this forum previously. I feel collectively we could put together a pretty comprehensive list of Cloudron alternatives/ competitors, and that we should. I think I may have even previously started a thread to that end...
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@marcusquinn said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:
Looks like someone else has a neat FOSS Cloudron alternative to compare and run a few apps missing here: https://github.com/meienberger/runtipi
Quite a few similar things have been shared in various posts on this forum previously. I feel collectively we could put together a pretty comprehensive list of Cloudron alternatives/ competitors, and that we should. I think I may have even previously started a thread to that end...
@jdaviescoates said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:
I think I may have even previously started a thread to that end...
But if I did, I can't find it! Must've dreamt it
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@jdaviescoates said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:
I think I may have even previously started a thread to that end...
But if I did, I can't find it! Must've dreamt it
But I know e.g. @scooke has posted other alternatives too, like e.g. Ethibox https://github.com/ethibox/ethibox
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@marcusquinn said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:
Looks like someone else has a neat FOSS Cloudron alternative to compare and run a few apps missing here: https://github.com/meienberger/runtipi
Quite a few similar things have been shared in various posts on this forum previously. I feel collectively we could put together a pretty comprehensive list of Cloudron alternatives/ competitors, and that we should. I think I may have even previously started a thread to that end...
@jdaviescoates said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:
and that we should
But with what goal? To make people switch away from Cloudron? Seems quite an inappropriate topic for this forum.
There for sure are quite some solutions with similar features. Some platforms are very developer centric, some platforms focus on downloading pirated content, but what most of the systems are missing is a comprehensive user management and unified login. And of course the backup and restore functionality that Cloudron provides.
What I can run with Cloudron, I run with Cloudron. And what does not work, is deployed as a separate environment.
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@jdaviescoates said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:
and that we should
But with what goal? To make people switch away from Cloudron? Seems quite an inappropriate topic for this forum.
There for sure are quite some solutions with similar features. Some platforms are very developer centric, some platforms focus on downloading pirated content, but what most of the systems are missing is a comprehensive user management and unified login. And of course the backup and restore functionality that Cloudron provides.
What I can run with Cloudron, I run with Cloudron. And what does not work, is deployed as a separate environment.
@fbartels
I've looked at lots of other "similar" offerings.
None of them come anywhere near close to Cloudron in terms of performance, stability, value for money etc.Being fully open source is a red-herring IMHO.
I just want Cloudron to work ... and it does.
Better than anything anywhere else. Simply no contest.
Just my 2p. -
@jdaviescoates said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:
and that we should
But with what goal? To make people switch away from Cloudron? Seems quite an inappropriate topic for this forum.
There for sure are quite some solutions with similar features. Some platforms are very developer centric, some platforms focus on downloading pirated content, but what most of the systems are missing is a comprehensive user management and unified login. And of course the backup and restore functionality that Cloudron provides.
What I can run with Cloudron, I run with Cloudron. And what does not work, is deployed as a separate environment.
@fbartels said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:
But with what goal? To make people switch away from Cloudron? Seems quite an inappropriate topic for this forum.
Seems like decent market research for Cloudron imho
But also just interesting alternative options for people to try/ investigate for deploying apps that aren't yet on Cloudron.
And also just because I like comprehensive lists that gather the knowledge of multiple people!
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Looks like someone else has a neat FOSS Cloudron alternative to compare and run a few apps missing here: https://github.com/meienberger/runtipi
@marcusquinn thumbs down on the name, and the image they use isn't even a tipi. Geez.
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@fbartels
I've looked at lots of other "similar" offerings.
None of them come anywhere near close to Cloudron in terms of performance, stability, value for money etc.Being fully open source is a red-herring IMHO.
I just want Cloudron to work ... and it does.
Better than anything anywhere else. Simply no contest.
Just my 2p.@timconsidine said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:
Being fully open source is a red-herring IMHO.
I love Cloudron, I promote it and recommend it because as you say it is the most accomplished platform in that field, plus I love the community and have massive respect for the two main developers, for their skills and the great software they make but also because of their friendly attitude, their care for customer support and the way they engage with users. Plus while Cloudron is not Free Software the code source is out there for any to inspect so that's great in terms of users knowing what the software actually does and that's good enough for me.
However, the point of Free Software is not only about how things are now but also about future proofing. Things might change in the devs' lives, they might need to move on, they might need a lump of cash cause something terrible happen and sell the company, or whatever else. And if the new devs have a different ethics what do we do? Look for another software and all the time and energy spent on Cloudron is kinda wasted and then not as many people benefit from this amazing platform? And to be honest the current situation makes it hard to recommend it and promote in some context because not everyone is just interested in the best software or value for money but also care about software license but ethical and practical reasons.
I don't have a perfect solution as I understand and respect Girish and Nebulon's current position in that they don't want someone to just fork everything and release it for free.
Maybe something could be added in the license that says the code must be made publicly available, and that if the license changes to a more restrictive one (one that removes the public release of the code), then the current license reverts to a Free Software license e.g. AGLP 3.0 or its successor. This would basically guarantee Freedom 0 and 1 and would implement some kind of (twisted) copyleft. And that would be enough to make me happy
But I don't know if that is possible at all?? I'm a legal geek but not on software license...yet
Anyone know? -
@marcusquinn said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:
Looks like someone else has a neat FOSS Cloudron alternative to compare and run a few apps missing here: https://github.com/meienberger/runtipi
Quite a few similar things have been shared in various posts on this forum previously. I feel collectively we could put together a pretty comprehensive list of Cloudron alternatives/ competitors, and that we should. I think I may have even previously started a thread to that end...
@jdaviescoates said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:
a pretty comprehensive list of Cloudron alternatives/ competitors
I still think such a list would be very helpful/ useful market research (and source of inspiration for App Wishlist posts)
I just came across https://elest.io/ via a post @Sam_uk made in a thread about Keycloak.
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@jdaviescoates said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:
a pretty comprehensive list of Cloudron alternatives/ competitors
I still think such a list would be very helpful/ useful market research (and source of inspiration for App Wishlist posts)
I just came across https://elest.io/ via a post @Sam_uk made in a thread about Keycloak.
@jdaviescoates said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:
I still think such a list would be very helpful/ useful market research (and source of inspiration for App Wishlist posts)
I've just started such a list of Cloudron alternatives/ competitors here.
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i2think cloudron needs to be open source again. even if companies do recell it, it would be great for it to be open source to the public.
my admins are critisizing cloudron for not bein open source, and want us to stop using it untill it becomes open source or something like that.my website is not available right now
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Yawn
What makes users think they have any say or influence on what the owner does.
Woke socialism
Have all your admins open sourced their activities? -
i2think cloudron needs to be open source again. even if companies do recell it, it would be great for it to be open source to the public.
my admins are critisizing cloudron for not bein open source, and want us to stop using it untill it becomes open source or something like that.@adison said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:
or something like that.
it is at least source available, which is a bit something like that
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i2think cloudron needs to be open source again. even if companies do recell it, it would be great for it to be open source to the public.
my admins are critisizing cloudron for not bein open source, and want us to stop using it untill it becomes open source or something like that.@adison They can view the source code. Are they offering any code contributions to what they see?
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Again, I prefer a sustainable paid software with available sources over an unsustainable open source project any day of the week. Look at Hashicorp, who suddenly switched licenses to become sustainable or the gazillion of abandoned open source projects...
