Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?

[danboarder]

@nebulon I have been following this conversation and testing Cloudron for over a year. I would like to see it fully open source for the same reason that Wordpress and Joomla CMS tools are fully open source: more people will use it and create a larger ecosystem that floats all boats. I for one would like to use Cloudron white-labeled on my own servers for hosting CMS websites and email for small businesses. Cloudron, as easy as it is, is still way too complex for the average small business owner or even their web guys. I host several hundred sites for small businesses and they generally "have a web guy" or an agency that they pay to "handle the website and email". Usually there is one person in a small company or organization who might want to login to Wordpress to post updates but beyond that it's too technical. Even maintaining plugin updates and backups are "handled by our web guy" from their perspective but they usually fall behind and eventually get hacked. So my goal is to build a better tool for web guys that have lots of small business hosting clients like myself. But at the moment I don't see a path forward for fully running Cloudron on my own servers for "web guys" and small agencies, so I'm hesitant to pursue it and I'm exploring alternatives, but it is very close to what I would like to provide if I can find a way to make it work.

[marcusquinn]

@danboarder FWIW I've been in the web business 20 years, and probably used every server control panel and managed/wordpress hosting, and none compare to the ease and value of Cloudron - for this web guy at least.

I don't know why the source code licence would stop you doing anything you want.

It sounds to me like you have the same options we all went through to end up here and happier.

I'm happy to recommend, and think you'll find Cloudron very time-liberating - but I can't see why the licence model would stop you using it?

Every action has a reaction, and every choice has an opportunity cost.

I guess your options are things like host server control panels like Plesk, managed services like Cloudways. Best I can say is I've been through those and time and gotchyas with those brought me here.

Personally, life experience tells me there's more than enough to do in business, if you have something that solves 90%+ of one area, you've probably got other areas that the freed up time would help you to get to 90%+ solutions in those other areas sooner than holding out for 100% solutions every time.

Don't know if that helps but then I didn't quite get the relationship between a common use-case and what that has to do with the licence model.

Maybe worth considering that being mass-market isn't always a good thing? Wordpress & Joomla for me are 90% wading through poor plugins, themes and bullshit marketing to find the small percent of things that are actually good. Focus trumps spray & pray every time in my world.

[3wordchant]

@jdaviescoates, thanks for the shout-out. I'd been meaning to hop over here and let people know about Co-op Cloud, but you beat me to it!

(Writing here in my personal capacity as a Co-op Cloud hacker, not speaking for Autonomic or for the project)

I'm personally really grateful that Cloudron exists, and the Cloudron team has been super-supportive to Autonomic over the years. Again, not speaking for the coöp, but I don't think we're fixin' to stop using Cloudron completely

You're absolutely right that the licence change was a huge factor in motivating me to help make Co-op Cloud, though – I'm proud that Autonomic had otherwise strictly avoided using proprietary software for our own infrastructure, and I share your sadness that we're maybe reinventing a wheel when there's such a great option available already That said, it's totally Cloudron's prerogative to re-license, and I wish them every continued success with the closed model

@fbartels, I think you're absolutely right that Cloudron is intended for a different group of people than Co-op Cloud is: I think Cloudron will continue to be a better "hands off" option, especially for people who don't know or don't like the command-line

To me, the main exciting things about Co-op Cloud are being able to keep your configuration in version control, using docker-compose (i.e. multi-service) format instead of Dockerfile format to package apps, and the licence. I guess, as @marcusquinn is saying, that there'll be many people who'll be more interested in the ease-of-use and automation of Cloudron, than that stuff.

@fbartels I'd also agree with you about what Co-op Cloud is:

a deployment utility for docker swarm along with a standardised way of deployment.

I'd just add that, as well as those two things, it's a collection of 30+ applications packaged using that format https://docs.cloud.autonomic.zone/apps/

Lastly, @scooke, that's a really good point about where the data is stored:

It's interesting to me that their user-initiated installation all takes place on and from the local machine, not the server. That actually worries me because if my laptop dies, and I haven't made that most recent backup, what happens to my server setup?

Co-op Cloud has a (so-far-undocumented) feature to mitigate this: you can store the ~/.abra/servers/ directory which contains app definitions in version control, or even symlink to folders in different repositories, if you have maintain different sets of apps with different servers with different teams. I use this myself and it works great, with minimal risk of losing work if my computer blows up.

A next step would be to auto-deploy the apps based on changes to repositories, which is something I'd like to add in time for the beta.

One other alternative (also not yet documented), which I'm also using on one project, is that you can install and run Co-op Cloud on the VPS you're managing – in which case the app definitions live on the server just as you're saying.

Caprover is definitely pretty similar: I'd started a comparison between it and Co-op Cloud but it doesn't look like it's made it into the docs yet. Watch this space!

[scooke]

@3wordchant Thank you for dropping in and sharing. Even though the topic here has been "which licence Cloudron uses", I am super keen for people be able to take control over their own data and manage it. I've slowly been disentangling myself from Facebook (actually did this 3 years ago), Instagram, Zoom, and have even started separating from gasp Google. I have Cloudron on more than one server; I even used Caprover*, which, despite its relative complexity, was useful for setting up and testing poste-io, wordpress was a breeze, etc. It is heartening to read your kind and enthusiastic words to the Cloudron team.

*I had to poke around to find the apps available on caprover: https://github.com/caprover/one-click-apps/tree/master/public/v4/apps)

[ntnsndr]

@3wordchant This is really exciting. Thank you for sharing this project!

[gabrielcossette]

There are many advantages to open source, but if I could point the most important to me in this case, it would be this one already mentioned by @ryangorley:

• Long-Term Assurance. The choice to self-host one's own infrastructure can be stressful. It becomes less stressful when you know that the software your using is open source and will be viable as long as there is a community willing to keep it going. This is one reason open source users become such loud advocates. They want that thriving community to live on forever, in a way they can't necessarily ensure a company will.

Whether I'm contributing apps or fixes as a:

• User (because I use Cloudron for my personal needs)
• Company (because I deploy Cloudron to my customers)
• App Author (because I want my app to be available in Cloudron)

I don't want my investment ( + ) to go to waste if Cloudron UG (the company), in the future:

• decides to change its terms in a certain way that don't fit my needs (or that I simply can't afford money-wise)
• is bought out by a company that has a different approach/view
• simply goes under

And to top it off, I would have to abruptly migrate all my apps to a different platform, costing me even more + .

But I still wish the best to the Cloudron team, which is doing an amazing job!

[marcusquinn]

@gabrielcossette If you can't afford Cloudron, you probably have bigger problems.

I'm an open-source first person too, but the source code is available, so I think that the reasoning is that the current team need to focus more on development than discussion, and open-source comes with a lot of admin overhead for discussion and rights-management.

I'm sure that will change in future, but probably just easier just not to get involved in all of that for now if we want all the main wish-list development things done any time soon.

[gabrielcossette]

@marcusquinn said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:

@gabrielcossette If you can't afford Cloudron, you probably have bigger problems.

Maybe I didn't word it correctly, but that's not what I meant. I wanted to express that Cloudron terms and pricing could change in the future, in a way that could not be appropriate anymore for some users. And as the platform is not open source, you have no choice than migrating to a different platform.

It's all about risk management.
Personally, I find it too risky to host all my digital infrastructure on a platform that doesn't provide a good exit strategy.

[...] open-source comes with a lot of admin overhead for discussion and rights-management.

As long as you manage expectations, you can do open source and not burn you out.

You could state: "Hey, feel free to use the code, ask questions and make contributions, but as our team has limited resources (for now), we can't make any promise regarding support. Also, if you are interested in reliable support, check out our commercial offer. "

[marcusquinn]

Looks like someone else has a neat FOSS Cloudron alternative to compare and run a few apps missing here: https://github.com/meienberger/runtipi

[robi]

@marcusquinn Perhaps their dockerfiles help with packaging here or at least easier adoption from pure code sources.

[jdaviescoates]

@marcusquinn said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:

Looks like someone else has a neat FOSS Cloudron alternative to compare and run a few apps missing here: https://github.com/meienberger/runtipi

Quite a few similar things have been shared in various posts on this forum previously. I feel collectively we could put together a pretty comprehensive list of Cloudron alternatives/ competitors, and that we should. I think I may have even previously started a thread to that end...

[jdaviescoates]

@jdaviescoates said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:

I think I may have even previously started a thread to that end...

But if I did, I can't find it! Must've dreamt it

[jdaviescoates]

But I know e.g. @scooke has posted other alternatives too, like e.g. Ethibox https://github.com/ethibox/ethibox

[fbartels]

@jdaviescoates said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:

and that we should

But with what goal? To make people switch away from Cloudron? Seems quite an inappropriate topic for this forum.

There for sure are quite some solutions with similar features. Some platforms are very developer centric, some platforms focus on downloading pirated content, but what most of the systems are missing is a comprehensive user management and unified login. And of course the backup and restore functionality that Cloudron provides.

What I can run with Cloudron, I run with Cloudron. And what does not work, is deployed as a separate environment.

[timconsidine]

@fbartels
I've looked at lots of other "similar" offerings.
None of them come anywhere near close to Cloudron in terms of performance, stability, value for money etc.

Being fully open source is a red-herring IMHO.
I just want Cloudron to work ... and it does.
Better than anything anywhere else. Simply no contest.
Just my 2p.

[jdaviescoates]

@fbartels said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:

But with what goal? To make people switch away from Cloudron? Seems quite an inappropriate topic for this forum.

Seems like decent market research for Cloudron imho

But also just interesting alternative options for people to try/ investigate for deploying apps that aren't yet on Cloudron.

And also just because I like comprehensive lists that gather the knowledge of multiple people!

[scooke]

@marcusquinn thumbs down on the name, and the image they use isn't even a tipi. Geez.

[avatar1024]

@timconsidine said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:

Being fully open source is a red-herring IMHO.

I love Cloudron, I promote it and recommend it because as you say it is the most accomplished platform in that field, plus I love the community and have massive respect for the two main developers, for their skills and the great software they make but also because of their friendly attitude, their care for customer support and the way they engage with users. Plus while Cloudron is not Free Software the code source is out there for any to inspect so that's great in terms of users knowing what the software actually does and that's good enough for me.

However, the point of Free Software is not only about how things are now but also about future proofing. Things might change in the devs' lives, they might need to move on, they might need a lump of cash cause something terrible happen and sell the company, or whatever else. And if the new devs have a different ethics what do we do? Look for another software and all the time and energy spent on Cloudron is kinda wasted and then not as many people benefit from this amazing platform? And to be honest the current situation makes it hard to recommend it and promote in some context because not everyone is just interested in the best software or value for money but also care about software license but ethical and practical reasons.

I don't have a perfect solution as I understand and respect Girish and Nebulon's current position in that they don't want someone to just fork everything and release it for free.

Maybe something could be added in the license that says the code must be made publicly available, and that if the license changes to a more restrictive one (one that removes the public release of the code), then the current license reverts to a Free Software license e.g. AGLP 3.0 or its successor. This would basically guarantee Freedom 0 and 1 and would implement some kind of (twisted) copyleft. And that would be enough to make me happy

But I don't know if that is possible at all?? I'm a legal geek but not on software license...yet Anyone know?

[jdaviescoates]

@jdaviescoates said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:

a pretty comprehensive list of Cloudron alternatives/ competitors

I still think such a list would be very helpful/ useful market research (and source of inspiration for App Wishlist posts)

I just came across https://elest.io/ via a post @Sam_uk made in a thread about Keycloak.

[jdaviescoates]

@jdaviescoates said in Why not make Cloudron fully open source again?:

I still think such a list would be very helpful/ useful market research (and source of inspiration for App Wishlist posts)

I've just started such a list of Cloudron alternatives/ competitors here.