What's coming in 6.0 (take 2)
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I've been meaning to ask this guys, but what's "focal" support. I've tried looking it up and it has something to do with Ubuntu, but I don't exactly know what it means?
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Wait a second does focal support...is that the name of Ubuntu 20.04. If so...uhm, I'm an idiot.
I've been wondering what focal support was for days and even looked it up. -
@Lonk edited for clarity
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@girish I just saw that in my notifications and I laughed at myself knowing that that was the only reason you changed it. Everybody else knew. But to be fair. I just got into DOCKER two weeks ago and only installed Ubuntu on my VPS for Cloudron specifically so I'm new to all of this.
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( @Lonk honestly, I didn't know either
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@mehdi Thank god I wasn't the only one.
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So what does 20.04 being updated for the host Cloudron system mean for the platform as a whole? I'm going to go look up the release notes of 20.04. But I was wondering what new features were specifically applicable to us.
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Feature wise, 20.04 brings nothing new. But its important because most of the popular vps providers are now switching to it as the default ubuntu. Users forget often to switch to ubuntu 18 before creating a vm.
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Relevant post here
playing with this mgmt app idea may bring more clarity here as it's being used. -
Funny enough, when I migrated from a VPS to on-prem (my house) I initially tried installing it on 20.04. Didn't work. :^)
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@girish said in What's coming in 6.0 (take 2):
Ubuntu Focal 20.04 support
Just to check, but I assume Ubuntu 18.04 will continue to be supported by Cloudron until it's end of life (i.e. until April, 2023)?
@girish said in What's coming in 6.0 (take 2):
- Mail - Full text search via IMAP (solr integration)
Can't wait for this! I think this will mean I'll finally have the courage to ditch G Suite for my primary email!
But, I wonder, will it somehow enable (at least some) of the search operators available in Gmail?
From the little I've read, I get the impression solr can do this stuff, but I just wonder if there will be (or are?) any open source webmail clients that can actually take advantage of it once we've got it?
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@jdaviescoates yes ubuntu 18.04 will continue to be supported.
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@jdaviescoates said in What's coming in 6.0 (take 2):
From the little I've read, I get the impression solr can do this stuff, but I just wonder if there will be (or are?) any open source webmail clients that can actually take advantage of it once we've got it?
Apparently, Roundcube should work (https://wiki.magenbrot.net/linux/mail/dovecot/volltextsuche_in_mails_mit_solr (German) and https://github.com/RainLoop/rainloop-webmail/issues/73#issuecomment-251093397).
Rainloop works with SOLR and dovecot (which I think Cloudron uses) if you create a virtual mail folder with all mail: https://github.com/RainLoop/rainloop-webmail/issues/73#issuecomment-412377275
Since the otherwise excellent Rainloop doesn't even support search in multiple folders, this would be a great improvement! I hope wish that @girish and @nebulon would / could preconfigure dovecot accordingly...
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@necrevistonnezr thanks, that all sounds positive, but I don't see anything there about which search operators will work. Guess maybe I'll just have to wait and see!
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Some big news: We will be adding i18n support in Cloudron 6. This work is being sponsored by Medias-Cite and their Cloudron project OSINUM. Thanks @Benoit ! As part of the work, we will also package the Weblate app (for translations).
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@girish
The awesome continues!More cow bell!
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@girish Ah, this is great news! As someone who's primary language is not English, I appreciate this effort and offer to put a bit of time into translation if need be.
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@girish This is great news. They are doing what I would have liked to do.
As an aside, they are advertising Cloudron as free software, which is not correct at the moment.
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@ruihildt You can/should still do it
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@girish said in What's coming in 6.0 (take 2):
@ruihildt You can/should still do it !
Something to announce ?
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We got some inquiries about what languages we will support. Currently, it's early days and we are just deciding on how to go about internationalization. Usually, translating an app is 2 steps. Step 1 is i18 phase where the app is made translation friendly. Step 2 is the l10n phase where localizations are provided.
At this point, all we know is that we will atleast launch with french and german translations.
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@girish That's great news. You can count on me for translation to Brazilian Portuguese.
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@malvim Beleza!
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Some updates on volume management. There is now a volume view.
You add a host path as a volume and give it a name. This is most likely some EBS/external hard disk/Block Storage. There is also the file manager integration (the button next to the delete button).
You can then go to the app view and mount these volumes into the apps. There is a new Storage section.
There is a section overload in the app configure view
We are looking to reducing the list of sections in the left pane. It's making things hard to find. -
This looks wonderful!
Off the top of my head, I could see the Console + Repair sections being merged and the Resources + Access Control + Location sections being merged. But honestly I am struggling to come up with names so I suppose thats why you have them the way you have them now.
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@girish Amazing!
It's almost like you develop with the power of telepathy sometimes
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@girish Any chance of you adding a button in for resizing the partition after upgrading a VM?
We're not here for a long time - but we are here for a good time :)
Jersey/UK
Work & Ecommerce Advice: https://brandlight.org
Personal & Software Tips: https://marcusquinn.com -
@marcusquinn Not for this release but hope to implement more volume management tools (like mounting nfs/sshfs, backing up volumes, resizing etc) as we go.
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Not a feature I was expecting but I know I'll take advantage of it. This is pretty cool!
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@marcusquinn said in What's coming in 6.0 (take 2):
@girish Any chance of you adding a button in for resizing the partition after upgrading a VM?
+1
Resizing my backup volume on Hetzner is one of the few reasons I have to occasionally ssh into my VPS.
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Externalizing a volume to a Minio/S3/Object store would be nice.
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@robi
s3 filesystem are not so mature, i read a lot on them because use s3 with dovecot in our mail server and the performance are terrible in u use s3 as FS, 20/40 ms depending on where you host the s3 server.The optimal solution is to use plugin or software that integrate s3 in to the App/script that you want to use.
Matteo. R.
Founder and Tech-Support Manager.
MooCloud MSP
Swiss Managed Service Provider -
@girish I could not have imagined a better system ! Looks amazing !
Three questions:
1/ How do you decide where in the app these are gonna be mounted? Is it in the same path for all apps ? Or could I create a given volume, and mount it at
/app/data/totoin app 1 and/app/data/tatain app 2 ?2/ How does it work when there already is data in the app's original
/app/databefore you mount the volume to it? Is it just hidden as long as the volume is mounted?3/ How does it work with regards to backups?
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For 1 and 2: Those volumes will be mounted into the apps based on
/media/<volumename>and thus one volume associated with apps will always have the same mountpoint within the apps.For 3: Initially those won't be backed up at all, but we will likely add optional backup per volume as well. The user has to be aware of the fact that volumes are not part of the app backups as such!
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@nebulon said in What's coming in 6.0 (take 2):
For 1 and 2: Those volumes will be mounted into the apps based on
/media/<volumename>and thus one volume associated with apps will always have the same mountpoint within the apps.For 3: Initially those won't be backed up at all, but we will likely add optional backup per volume as well. The user has to be aware of the fact that volumes are not part of the app backups as such!
That’s the difference to storage mounted in „Resources“ - this will get backed up, correct?
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The volumes are setup outside of the apps first and are essentially independent. Once you've created a volume you can then mount that into an app via the Storage section in the app configuration. Even if mounted though, it will not be part of the app backup, since the main reason for volumes is to be mounted into multiple apps. For that we have to first figure out how to manage those with regards to backups.
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@nebulon That makes sense. I’m of the opinion that optional block storage should effectively be backed up at the host level not the application level. In other words, taking a snapshot or something like that which many providers allow even volumes / block storage to be snapshotted. Much like how we need to snapshot our actual VPS on occasion too for a backup strategy of the entire server.
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@nebulon said in What's coming in 6.0 (take 2):
The volumes are setup outside of the apps first and are essentially independent. Once you've created a volume you can then mount that into an app via the Storage section in the app configuration. Even if mounted though, it will not be part of the app backup, since the main reason for volumes is to be mounted into multiple apps. For that we have to first figure out how to manage those with regards to backups.
No, I mean external volumes that you can currently already move the data dir to under „Resources“ in the app settings - this gets backed up, correct?
(
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We haven't decided on the naming yet, but maybe Volumes can be instead renamed to External Media or something, if it clarifies things. Open to other suggestions as well.
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@MooCloud_Matt this is only true if you use dumb S3 connectors that treat it like a filesystem instead of an object store.
It's a very different experience when things are treated properly as objects.
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Re: Volumes - I think this will create a solution for something that I have been trying to resolve - i.e. Nextcloud app backups WITHOUT the data!
I want to be able to back up the app via Cloudron natively - but backup the data via borg/restic/kopia or the like. This looks like it could resolve this issue if the data was an attached volume. Very much looking forward to this feature if it's like that.
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@iqweb said in What's coming in 6.0 (take 2):
Re: Volumes - I think this will create a solution for something that I have been trying to resolve - i.e. Nextcloud app backups WITHOUT the data!
Yes, I think this will solve that use case. You mount a volume into nextcloud and configure nextcloud to use it as external storage.
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@girish can you also mount an ‘on server’ folder like that?
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@imc67 Yes. Currently, the main restriction is that you can only add host paths under /mnt and /media as a volume. So, you can create some NFS mount or SSHFS mount there and then add it as a volume and then mount it into an app.
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@ruihildt There is a free tier, and if the "5 Mailboxes" means there is some functional email, then that is not bad.
A life lived in fear is a life half-lived
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@scooke I'm not sure what you're replying to?
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@girish can't wait to have volumes to play with!
what's your guestimate ETA? -
@jdaviescoates Cloudron 6 is ~2-3 weeks away. The translation project is quite a massive change, so maybe I am being overlay optimistic here.
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@girish all power to your elbow! (i.e. good luck!)
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@ruihildt Your comment from 26 days ago, "As an aside, they are advertising Cloudron as free software, which is not correct at the moment." I came across it as I read through the entire thread.
A life lived in fear is a life half-lived
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@scooke said in What's coming in 6.0 (take 2):
@ruihildt Your comment from 26 days ago, "As an aside, they are advertising Cloudron as free software, which is not correct at the moment." I came across it as I read through the entire thread.
I think you've missed the point
@ruihildt was talking about free as in freedom (which is how that project advertises Cloudron), not free as in price.
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@jdaviescoates I figured so. But I wonder why @ruihildt bothered to point out what he did. The few lines I found on the website aren't actually advertising Cloudron as %100 open source, but rather that the code they use is open source. I'd be more bothered by their approach, like Framasoft, where if the user has no idea about the existence of Cloudron, in this case, the company's description of what they do (https://osinum.fr/) makes it sound like it is and has been all their own doing. Much of what they promise to do is based on whether Cloudron, or all the other myriad open source projects in use, has or will implement it, but they don't clearly specify that. If I found them, and started using them, and THEN discovered they actually use Cloudron, I'd be a little miffed, and would just switch over to Cloudron.
Anyway, I have no clue what "being sponsored by Medias-Cite" means, but if the Cloudron team are fine with it, and this "sponsoring" helps move Cloudron forward, great.(A bit more reading shows that they, osinum.fr, are charging a minimum 150 EURO/month!!! I guess they are paying Cloudron for the Premium Plus plan. They offer, for almost triple the price of Cloudron's pricing,
1 domain name (.fr, .com, .org, .net)
Accommodation in France
Shared server
100 GB
5 applications
50 users
Management of user groups
Daily backups
Surveillance / Monitoring / Security
Email supportMaybe I should get into offering cloudron!!
A life lived in fear is a life half-lived
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hey guys, let's stick to Cloudron 6 related discussion here
Feel free to open new thread for other topics. -
@girish fair enough
Just to quickly say (sorry) to @scooke re:
the user has no idea about the existence of Cloudron
I'm not sure where you are looking but on https://osinum.fr/ there is this:
Which translates as:
"The core of OSINUM is the Cloudron software and its team of developers."
So 1) they seem quite clear about being based on Cloudron, and 2) they've actually changed what it used to say which @ruihildt was commenting on.
Previously it said: "The core of OSINUM is the open source software Cloudron and its team of developers."
Edit: see my screenshot here https://twitter.com/jdaviescoates/status/1314243996441620480
/end.
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@jdaviescoates @girish D'accord.
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@girish said in What's coming in 6.0 (take 2):
You add a host path as a volume and give it a name. This is most likely some EBS/external hard disk/Block Storage.
I'm assuming volumes will support CIFS unlike current external data storage, right? (if not I had better cancel the Hetzner storage box I just ordered for this purpuse (or just start using it for backups where CIFS is already allowed)!
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@girish said in What's coming in 6.0 (take 2):
@imc67 Yes. Currently, the main restriction is that you can only add host paths under /mnt and /media as a volume. So, you can create some NFS mount or SSHFS mount there and then add it as a volume and then mount it into an app.
I really would appreciate it if you could create a step by step instruction in the docs by that time. I guess more users with large base “disk” would want to use this!
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@jdaviescoates said in What's coming in 6.0 (take 2):
I'm assuming volumes will support CIFS unlike current external data storage, right? (if not I had better cancel the Hetzner storage box I just ordered for this purpuse (or just start using it for backups where CIFS is already allowed)! )
The underlying problem is still there, CIFS / SMB don't support users and groups in the FS, so i guess it will depend on the apps, if they rely on FS permissions or not
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@mehdi hmz, thanks, so I'm guessing likely not then.
So Hetzner storage boxes likely a no no for volumes (I guess I'll cancel the one I've just ordered, or just use it for backups)
I wonder what would be a good option...
I guess maybe Hetzner Volumes would work well, but they cost a lot more (a 500GB storage box is 5.68€/mo, whereas a 500GB Volume is 24€/mo)
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@jdaviescoates said in What's coming in 6.0 (take 2):
So Hetzner storage boxes likely a no no for volumes (I guess I'll cancel the one I've just ordered, or just use it for backups)
So, there's two kinds of storages:
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Data Directory - This is a location used by the app and only the app uses it exclusively. The app will store say attachments, profile pics, avatars, plugin code and whatever it needs in this directory. Data directory has to be ext4 because the packaging code requires file system permissions to work etc. This is the location you specify in https://docs.cloudron.io/storage/#app-data-directory . You can think of this app as part of an app's "state" (just like the database) and it is thus backed up and restored.
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External Directory/Volumes - This location can be any file system. Mostly the app just reads file (docs, music, movies etc) from this. So the permissions don't matter. It is also expected that these directories can be shared across apps. This is similar to the home directory on linux or My Documents on Windows. It's just separate directory that apps have access to. If you uninstall, backup apps, that folder is untouched. For these kind of directories, the file system type is not relevant. It can be anything - sshfs, cifs, ext2 whatever.
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