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Cloudron Forum

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  1. Cloudron Forum
  2. App Packaging & Development
  3. Chat channel for cloudron app packaging

Chat channel for cloudron app packaging

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved App Packaging & Development
35 Posts 11 Posters 3.7k Views 10 Watching
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  • nebulonN Offline
    nebulonN Offline
    nebulon
    Staff
    wrote on last edited by
    #7

    Actually I think it would be best if you would raise those beginner questions individually on the forum and we can then pick them one-by-one and move them to the docs itself, if they are generic enough.

    Generally our docs still have a long way to go when it comes to packaging.

    ruihildtR 1 Reply Last reply
    2
    • fbartelsF fbartels

      @marcusquinn said in Dedicated chat for cloudron app packaging:

      Saying that, it might be handy if @app-dev mentioning was a thing?

      it is. you just need to do it correctly ๐Ÿ˜‰ @appdev

      ruihildtR Offline
      ruihildtR Offline
      ruihildt
      wrote on last edited by
      #8

      @fbartels I don't want to be pinging every app developer and overload their notifications every time I have a question. Unless this is an agreed way of doing things and considered good practice.

      There was this discussion when talking about implementing group vs badge, it was decided to use groups for technical reasons, even though @girish preferred to have simple badges to start with.

      1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • nebulonN nebulon

        Actually I think it would be best if you would raise those beginner questions individually on the forum and we can then pick them one-by-one and move them to the docs itself, if they are generic enough.

        Generally our docs still have a long way to go when it comes to packaging.

        ruihildtR Offline
        ruihildtR Offline
        ruihildt
        wrote on last edited by
        #9

        @nebulon That would indeed create the best value for the community.

        To me the question is more involved: do I want to spend time contributing to create documentation for free, for a project that's not free software?

        This is coming full circle with discussions happening on other threads. I'm not trying to restart this discussion here, just explaining where I sit regarding this approach.

        1 Reply Last reply
        1
        • girishG Offline
          girishG Offline
          girish
          Staff
          wrote on last edited by
          #10

          We don't want to officially endorse a chat channel, would be a step back for us for reasons @nebulon mentioned. I think there is already a Cloudron matrix channel, isn't it? We can list it here in this category's pinned topic.

          1 Reply Last reply
          4
          • girishG Offline
            girishG Offline
            girish
            Staff
            wrote on last edited by
            #11

            OK, I have put the chat in https://forum.cloudron.io/topic/2843/read-first-before-starting-to-package-an-app . You can find us on matrix at #discuss:cloudron.io.

            1 Reply Last reply
            2
            • LonkleL Offline
              LonkleL Offline
              Lonkle
              wrote on last edited by
              #12

              I personally basically live blogged my development on this forum: https://forum.cloudron.io/post/13323. It didn't feel very chat-like, but I did it in hopes it would help new developers. Since I was a new developer. Did it bother anyone, do you think a chat group would have been better in the end for me to have cluttered up the forum with (constantly "bumping" my thread to the top)? ๐Ÿค”

              1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • girishG Offline
                girishG Offline
                girish
                Staff
                wrote on last edited by girish
                #13

                NodeBB threads can be easily ignored.

                5dff9db6-d3a4-4fd3-945e-e9cae4d5eb40-image.png

                (As for the constant bump, I guess it's fine. It doesn't affect my workflow atleast.)

                LonkleL 1 Reply Last reply
                2
                • girishG girish

                  NodeBB threads can be easily ignored.

                  5dff9db6-d3a4-4fd3-945e-e9cae4d5eb40-image.png

                  (As for the constant bump, I guess it's fine. It doesn't affect my workflow atleast.)

                  LonkleL Offline
                  LonkleL Offline
                  Lonkle
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #14

                  @girish Oh yeah, you're right. Sweet!

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  1
                  • BrutalBirdieB Offline
                    BrutalBirdieB Offline
                    BrutalBirdie
                    Partner
                    wrote on last edited by BrutalBirdie
                    #15

                    I can understand the wish for a chat, but I agree with @nebulon and everyone else endorsing the official forum.

                    Having the conversation in the official forum has many benefits.

                    Lets just switch into the mindset of a new Cloudron user / developer.

                    Just as an example:

                    • I need the lamp app but with php 5.X.
                    • Why is there no php 5 lamp app?
                    • How can I create a custom php 5 app?

                    What do most people do? They will type that question into a search engine.

                    Chat vs. Forum

                    If this discussion would take place in the chat, there would be no way for a new user to find public and easy access to that information about this issue/question.
                    How should they know they need to go threw a chat with X people talking about all different kind of topics.
                    Also you lock this information behind a software like matrix, rocketchat, slack, matermost yada yada.

                    New users want answers which are accessible without needing to sign up for anything.

                    Compared to an open discussion in the forum, which will be scraped by search engines and will be publicly available with no need to sign up or do anything to access this information.

                    IMHO chat is nice, but when using one there has to be a policy where findings and solutions must be also published in this forum.
                    And enforcing such a policy or even establish such will be hard.

                    That's just what I have in mind about a chat.

                    Cheers ๐Ÿป

                    Like my work? Consider donating a drink. Cheers!

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    5
                    • LonkleL Offline
                      LonkleL Offline
                      Lonkle
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #16

                      I tried using the Matrix and it wasn't as intuitive or as useful as the forums for development FWIW.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • fbartelsF fbartels

                        @marcusquinn said in Dedicated chat for cloudron app packaging:

                        Saying that, it might be handy if @app-dev mentioning was a thing?

                        it is. you just need to do it correctly ๐Ÿ˜‰ @appdev

                        robiR Offline
                        robiR Offline
                        robi
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #17

                        @appdev
                        It would brilliant if NodeBB could instatiate a chat within the appdev group right here in NodeBB.

                        That would do for quick discussions, and no need to leave the forum.

                        Conscious tech

                        BrutalBirdieB 1 Reply Last reply
                        1
                        • robiR robi

                          @appdev
                          It would brilliant if NodeBB could instatiate a chat within the appdev group right here in NodeBB.

                          That would do for quick discussions, and no need to leave the forum.

                          BrutalBirdieB Offline
                          BrutalBirdieB Offline
                          BrutalBirdie
                          Partner
                          wrote on last edited by BrutalBirdie
                          #18

                          @robi said in Chat channel for cloudron app packaging:

                          @appdev
                          It would brilliant if NodeBB could instatiate a chat within the appdev group right here in NodeBB.

                          That would do for quick discussions, and no need to leave the forum.

                          You can start a chat with anyone from appdev and add the members.

                          I can do that now as an example.

                          ALT

                          I think the best option would be, if you have a question to start a forum topic and just @appdev directly.
                          Yes you could argue that every one gets a notification, but in the chat it would be the same thing, kind of.

                          Adding to that, I also see no setting for Notifications & Sounds in NodeBB to stop notifications from @appdev mentions.

                          Like my work? Consider donating a drink. Cheers!

                          robiR 1 Reply Last reply
                          3
                          • BrutalBirdieB BrutalBirdie

                            @robi said in Chat channel for cloudron app packaging:

                            @appdev
                            It would brilliant if NodeBB could instatiate a chat within the appdev group right here in NodeBB.

                            That would do for quick discussions, and no need to leave the forum.

                            You can start a chat with anyone from appdev and add the members.

                            I can do that now as an example.

                            ALT

                            I think the best option would be, if you have a question to start a forum topic and just @appdev directly.
                            Yes you could argue that every one gets a notification, but in the chat it would be the same thing, kind of.

                            Adding to that, I also see no setting for Notifications & Sounds in NodeBB to stop notifications from @appdev mentions.

                            robiR Offline
                            robiR Offline
                            robi
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #19

                            @BrutalBirdie yes, that's a given, but always a manual addition of 1-to-1 vs 1-to-group.

                            Conscious tech

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • LonkleL Offline
                              LonkleL Offline
                              Lonkle
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #20

                              Mentioning the app devโ€™s is important. I think this is incredibly important to keep everything public. But us still getting notifications to help new devs. I say that as if Iโ€™m not a new dev. ๐Ÿ˜‚

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              1
                              • ruihildtR Offline
                                ruihildtR Offline
                                ruihildt
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #21

                                @nebulon @girish I stumbled today on some interesting reading regarding the articulation between a chat and a forum in a community, and you might find it interesting:

                                https://forum.mautic.org/t/using-the-community-forums-with-slack/12011

                                https://blog.discourse.org/2018/04/effectively-using-discourse-together-with-group-chat/

                                Admittedly we're using neither slack nor discourse (which I sometimes feel is a lost opportunity as it's more mature in most way than Nodebb), but the main points are still valids.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • marcusquinnM Offline
                                  marcusquinnM Offline
                                  marcusquinn
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #22

                                  For interest, I work with a team of 12 developers and around 20 others across departments every day, we're a fully remote team.

                                  For the development team we're about 90% discussion in GitLab tickets, the rest through Discord (not Discourse). The Customer Services team is about the same. Generally, all the chat is FYIs, attention-needing stuff, alerts or idle gossip for a break.

                                  We just get more done in the ticket/post/thread asynchronous stuff when we're all multi-tasking.

                                  I'm not against chat and the forum does have that available, but for development the ability to search threads and read the discussions that led to a commit is valuable, and there's no real limits to storage of that when thoughtfully categorised.

                                  Every single time I've seen a Discord "Community" created for something, it goes from lonely hearts to distracting noise pretty quickly and I have to mute the whole thing.

                                  I like a chat, and always open for DMs but to me work is something that needs the organisation and openness of topic-specific threaded conversations, and searchability for those evolutions. It helps focus the mind when knowing conversations are becoming a historic record and keeps the noise and interruptions factors limited when trying to focus on developments.

                                  Web Design https://www.evergreen.je
                                  Development https://brandlight.org
                                  Life https://marcusquinn.com

                                  ruihildtR 1 Reply Last reply
                                  3
                                  • marcusquinnM marcusquinn

                                    For interest, I work with a team of 12 developers and around 20 others across departments every day, we're a fully remote team.

                                    For the development team we're about 90% discussion in GitLab tickets, the rest through Discord (not Discourse). The Customer Services team is about the same. Generally, all the chat is FYIs, attention-needing stuff, alerts or idle gossip for a break.

                                    We just get more done in the ticket/post/thread asynchronous stuff when we're all multi-tasking.

                                    I'm not against chat and the forum does have that available, but for development the ability to search threads and read the discussions that led to a commit is valuable, and there's no real limits to storage of that when thoughtfully categorised.

                                    Every single time I've seen a Discord "Community" created for something, it goes from lonely hearts to distracting noise pretty quickly and I have to mute the whole thing.

                                    I like a chat, and always open for DMs but to me work is something that needs the organisation and openness of topic-specific threaded conversations, and searchability for those evolutions. It helps focus the mind when knowing conversations are becoming a historic record and keeps the noise and interruptions factors limited when trying to focus on developments.

                                    ruihildtR Offline
                                    ruihildtR Offline
                                    ruihildt
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #23

                                    @marcusquinn If you look at the Discourse guide (Discourse is just an opinionated modern and extensible forum platform) I posted, you'll see it actually mirrors quite a lot your working experience of communication.

                                    It's definitely not a binary situation where X or Y is better.

                                    I started this thread here with a specific angle (I suggest a chat space for app developers), and here's a summary of what I learned:

                                    • Chat is not scalable after a hundred of users
                                    • Forum is better for knowledge discovery and retention
                                    • Chat can create a better community and create links stronger than in a forum (but it's not scalable when you reach thousands of users)
                                    • Chat and forum can both provide value as long as policies are set and followed

                                    So it seems to me the main blocker for me in this situation is that @girish and @nebulon don't have the time and resource to provide that experience for the community more than anything.

                                    And I absolutely don't mean this as a negative critic.

                                    marcusquinnM 1 Reply Last reply
                                    2
                                    • ruihildtR ruihildt

                                      @marcusquinn If you look at the Discourse guide (Discourse is just an opinionated modern and extensible forum platform) I posted, you'll see it actually mirrors quite a lot your working experience of communication.

                                      It's definitely not a binary situation where X or Y is better.

                                      I started this thread here with a specific angle (I suggest a chat space for app developers), and here's a summary of what I learned:

                                      • Chat is not scalable after a hundred of users
                                      • Forum is better for knowledge discovery and retention
                                      • Chat can create a better community and create links stronger than in a forum (but it's not scalable when you reach thousands of users)
                                      • Chat and forum can both provide value as long as policies are set and followed

                                      So it seems to me the main blocker for me in this situation is that @girish and @nebulon don't have the time and resource to provide that experience for the community more than anything.

                                      And I absolutely don't mean this as a negative critic.

                                      marcusquinnM Offline
                                      marcusquinnM Offline
                                      marcusquinn
                                      wrote on last edited by marcusquinn
                                      #24

                                      @ruihildt Sure, and aware of Discourse, been online since modems where a thing you placed your Bakelite phone on ๐Ÿ™‚

                                      TBH, sounds like a thing for you to do privately with any fellow acquaintances you make here that can afford the time, so the forum still finds you those connections, and it seems you already found those to chat with when specifically needed.

                                      I just can't see myself being able to get involved in yet another chat channel among many commitments, so guessing others may be similar.

                                      Kinda feels like what we already have from @girish and @nebulon in his answer already serves everyone very well, and I've been through the multi-channel comms issues with collab work so many times now I'm shy of anything that presumes attention, when most people I work with are more productive when collab is at their asynchronous leisure.

                                      Web Design https://www.evergreen.je
                                      Development https://brandlight.org
                                      Life https://marcusquinn.com

                                      ruihildtR 1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • marcusquinnM marcusquinn

                                        @ruihildt Sure, and aware of Discourse, been online since modems where a thing you placed your Bakelite phone on ๐Ÿ™‚

                                        TBH, sounds like a thing for you to do privately with any fellow acquaintances you make here that can afford the time, so the forum still finds you those connections, and it seems you already found those to chat with when specifically needed.

                                        I just can't see myself being able to get involved in yet another chat channel among many commitments, so guessing others may be similar.

                                        Kinda feels like what we already have from @girish and @nebulon in his answer already serves everyone very well, and I've been through the multi-channel comms issues with collab work so many times now I'm shy of anything that presumes attention, when most people I work with are more productive when collab is at their asynchronous leisure.

                                        ruihildtR Offline
                                        ruihildtR Offline
                                        ruihildt
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #25

                                        @marcusquinn I think it's worth keeping in mind the difference of context (work environment vs community environment).

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • LonkleL Offline
                                          LonkleL Offline
                                          Lonkle
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #26

                                          If Cloudron had a Discord and a channel for app devs. Thatโ€™d be pretty cool. But it could be for the whole community if youโ€™d want to start it. I tried Matrix and it wasnโ€™t great so I seriously wander if the community would benefit from a Discord channel.

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