Backup Improvements: Restic Backend
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@girish any plan to improve the backup solution on cloudron maybe with Restic as engine?
@MooCloud_Matt we are rewriting the storage backend a bit in https://forum.cloudron.io/topic/6768/what-s-coming-in-7-2 . Part of the reason is to make more backends easier to integrate.
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@MooCloud_Matt we are rewriting the storage backend a bit in https://forum.cloudron.io/topic/6768/what-s-coming-in-7-2 . Part of the reason is to make more backends easier to integrate.
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Not yet but I would like to discuss one thing here. Backups are crucial and loss of data for us implies loss of business and money quite literally. This is why we wrote the backup code ourselves a while ago. Also, why we create our own packages - it's all about data integrity and loss of data === loss of trust in product.
Initially, before we wrote our own backup stuff, I remember we used duplicati and btrfs etc . We faced various issues and there was essentially no help from upstream. Now, restic I am sure is great but if there is some corruption or issue, our customers will look to us to solve this. So, this is a tricky situation for us
Maybe we can do some restic integration with lots of warnings? End user also has to know what to do if there is restic corruption and other issues. Keep in mind restic is also not 1.0 yet . They say "Once version 1.0.0 is released, we guarantee backward compatibility of all repositories within one major version; ...".Any suggestions?
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Are there any plans to add Restic as an extra backup method? Two of my Cloudrons are in the meanwhile +200GB and the current methods are not sufficient.
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@girish yes indeed I use Hetzner Storagebox and use tgz over CIFS. Is there a better/smarter/quicker way?
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Curious for which settings do you recommend for backups to Storagebox and how much better it can get
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@imc67 yes, Hetzner Storagebox has rsync . So, we can be muuuch more efficient when calculating changes. I will investigate how much better it can get.
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@imc67 still working through the backups rewrite, will leave a note here once I have something.
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@girish after 4 months I'm still curious for the results of the "backups rewrite" as our daily backup now takes >5 hours
@imc67 the rewrite hasn't happened
I think this will only happen over xmas and new year vacation when support is low. -
Any update on the backup methodology? I read a lot of issues in the forum about crashing backups due to several reasons. Maybe this can help?
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@imc67 we have not started working on a restic backend, if that's what you are asking.
I think most of the issues are just because of using a large variety of s3 providers. There's way too many of them. Made worse by people choosing the cheapest/low end providers who don't provide any support either. That and SSHFS/CIFS flakiness. I doubt moving to restic solves any of this because they are not related to backup code itself but infrastructure related. Just my thoughts though.
Now instead of dealing with our backup issues, we would be dealing with issue of another backend like say 1, 2 and 3 - these are just restic issues of last week. It would be worse because we have not much idea on how to deal with restic bugs.
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@imc67 we have not started working on a restic backend, if that's what you are asking.
I think most of the issues are just because of using a large variety of s3 providers. There's way too many of them. Made worse by people choosing the cheapest/low end providers who don't provide any support either. That and SSHFS/CIFS flakiness. I doubt moving to restic solves any of this because they are not related to backup code itself but infrastructure related. Just my thoughts though.
Now instead of dealing with our backup issues, we would be dealing with issue of another backend like say 1, 2 and 3 - these are just restic issues of last week. It would be worse because we have not much idea on how to deal with restic bugs.
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FWIW I have a RaspberryPi for 3 years with a Restic daily backup to a Cloudron Minio S3 and 2 weeks ago I needed a restore for the first time. It took me the most time to rediscover how I configured it 3 years ago and how to restore but it worked flawless! I know it’s just n=1 but it’s worth to have a look at it.
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@girish It could also be the opposite experience, since restic would be handling all the issues, meaning less work for you with custom one-off fixes as they crop up.
@robi yes definitely.
I do know that people want urgent fixes when backups and restores are not working, I just don't know how we can take up this responsibility. If my production site is down and it doesn't restore, what now? This will cost us real money because people will ask for a refund.
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@robi yes definitely.
I do know that people want urgent fixes when backups and restores are not working, I just don't know how we can take up this responsibility. If my production site is down and it doesn't restore, what now? This will cost us real money because people will ask for a refund.
@girish I think something that could be interesting, is the ability to use the cloudron filesystem dump and then have a "hook" that could post process the data. Possibly with capturing whatever that hook produces in a cloudron notification (to be natively informed if the post processing fails).
I have set up a few cloudrons in the last week with a combination of local disk rsync in cloudron (with local retention and hardlinks) and then using autorestic and Cron to push the cloudron backup via sftp to a hetzner storageboxes (optionally as a subuser). Have even performed a restore test, for which I first restored the previous state of
/var/backupsbefore running cloudrons restore.Autorestic is taking care of retention and streamlining the sftp backend use. I even use it to make regular snapshots of the appsdata and boxdata directories in the yellowtent home.
The benefit of the hook would be the extended piece of mind that as soon als cloudron has finished the backup, it is pushed to its remote location.
@girish said in Backup Improvements: Restic Backend:
This will cost us real money because people will ask for a refund
Yes, restore of backups is crucial. Luckily so far cloudron has not let me down and overall it has been a very stable experience.
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@girish I think something that could be interesting, is the ability to use the cloudron filesystem dump and then have a "hook" that could post process the data. Possibly with capturing whatever that hook produces in a cloudron notification (to be natively informed if the post processing fails).
I have set up a few cloudrons in the last week with a combination of local disk rsync in cloudron (with local retention and hardlinks) and then using autorestic and Cron to push the cloudron backup via sftp to a hetzner storageboxes (optionally as a subuser). Have even performed a restore test, for which I first restored the previous state of
/var/backupsbefore running cloudrons restore.Autorestic is taking care of retention and streamlining the sftp backend use. I even use it to make regular snapshots of the appsdata and boxdata directories in the yellowtent home.
The benefit of the hook would be the extended piece of mind that as soon als cloudron has finished the backup, it is pushed to its remote location.
@girish said in Backup Improvements: Restic Backend:
This will cost us real money because people will ask for a refund
Yes, restore of backups is crucial. Luckily so far cloudron has not let me down and overall it has been a very stable experience.
@fbartels said in Backup Improvements: Restic Backend:
I have set up a few cloudrons in the last week with a combination of local disk rsync in cloudron (with local retention and hardlinks) and then using autorestic and Cron to push the cloudron backup via sftp to a hetzner storageboxes (optionally as a subuser). Have even performed a restore test, for which I first restored the previous state of
/var/backupsbefore running cloudrons restore.@fbartels Exactly my setup for a couple of years: https://forum.cloudron.io/topic/6928/tutorial-remote-backup-of-local-cloudron-backup-snapshots-with-restic-rclone/
What‘s nice is that you can e.g. check and restore files on a different machine running restic & rclone. -
@robi yes definitely.
I do know that people want urgent fixes when backups and restores are not working, I just don't know how we can take up this responsibility. If my production site is down and it doesn't restore, what now? This will cost us real money because people will ask for a refund.
@girish said in Backup Improvements: Restic Backend:
I do know that people want urgent fixes when backups and restores are not working,
Yes, however be aware of fear based thinking here. It's not the end of the world, previous backups exist and the situation is temporary.
I just don't know how we can take up this responsibility.
It isn't your responsibility, even though you empathize and do a lot for us to make it easier. External backups are an external responsibility and best effort support here, which you do well. So, no fear.
If my production site is down and it doesn't restore, what now? This will cost us real money because people will ask for a refund.
It's like any other issue, you and we will find a way. This is the way.
Again, avoid decisions out of fear. And no, it will not cost you money (you're not hurting there), as it's not a Cloudron issue, but an external one.You can relax and trust your loyal community to show you the way forward, as @fbartels and @necrevistonnezr already have.
