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Cloudron Forum

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  1. Cloudron Forum
  2. App Packaging & Development
  3. Chat channel for cloudron app packaging

Chat channel for cloudron app packaging

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved App Packaging & Development
35 Posts 11 Posters 3.7k Views 10 Watching
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  • ruihildtR Offline
    ruihildtR Offline
    ruihildt
    wrote on last edited by ruihildt
    #1

    Recently, while packaging a personal simple app for cloudron, I stumbled on small issues.

    I went to the cloudron chat where @mehdi helped me run my first app, but this chat seems to be winding down.

    While it makes sense for cloudron (as an org) not to entertain the chat as a customer support channel, I think having a chat for cloudron app packagers/developer could be useful: quick discussions/questions can benefit immensely and don't need to be written down on the forum.

    This could be either endorsed as the official developer channel, or a more informal chat thing, whichever fits better for @girish and @nebulon . I don't care much for the platform, but probably a Matrix channel would be a good thing.

    What do you think?

    1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • nebulonN Offline
      nebulonN Offline
      nebulon
      Staff
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      I am not generally opposed to having a chat dedicated for that, but a huge drawback of chats in such a case is the issue of discoverability for new people. So solutions worked out for issues will get lost easily and thus newcomers will end up raising similar/same questions again and again. I do believe the forum is still the best place to ask and work out solutions.

      I understand the turnaround time in a forum vs chat is different, but there is no problem using personal chats in our rocket.chat instance or so to quickly get down to an issue, nevertheless for the sake of community building up knowledge, it would usually still be tremendously helpful to then present solutions in the forum.

      For support we also sometimes use chat to solve issues quickly and then try to also followup with the solution if any in either forum or even docs.

      marcusquinnM ruihildtR GrienauerG 3 Replies Last reply
      4
      • nebulonN nebulon

        I am not generally opposed to having a chat dedicated for that, but a huge drawback of chats in such a case is the issue of discoverability for new people. So solutions worked out for issues will get lost easily and thus newcomers will end up raising similar/same questions again and again. I do believe the forum is still the best place to ask and work out solutions.

        I understand the turnaround time in a forum vs chat is different, but there is no problem using personal chats in our rocket.chat instance or so to quickly get down to an issue, nevertheless for the sake of community building up knowledge, it would usually still be tremendously helpful to then present solutions in the forum.

        For support we also sometimes use chat to solve issues quickly and then try to also followup with the solution if any in either forum or even docs.

        marcusquinnM Offline
        marcusquinnM Offline
        marcusquinn
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        @nebulon Yup, this forum is super handy for reading those transcripts of any age.

        There's 1-2-1 chat in the forum too, which I also use on occasion to minimise noise.

        I've seen this happen many times with many projects, multiple discussion channels just scatters and forks information threads.

        I put this need as a personal one.

        Saying that, it might be handy if @app-dev mentioning was a thing?

        Web Design https://www.evergreen.je
        Development https://brandlight.org
        Life https://marcusquinn.com

        fbartelsF 1 Reply Last reply
        1
        • marcusquinnM marcusquinn

          @nebulon Yup, this forum is super handy for reading those transcripts of any age.

          There's 1-2-1 chat in the forum too, which I also use on occasion to minimise noise.

          I've seen this happen many times with many projects, multiple discussion channels just scatters and forks information threads.

          I put this need as a personal one.

          Saying that, it might be handy if @app-dev mentioning was a thing?

          fbartelsF Offline
          fbartelsF Offline
          fbartels
          App Dev
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          @marcusquinn said in Dedicated chat for cloudron app packaging:

          Saying that, it might be handy if @app-dev mentioning was a thing?

          it is. you just need to do it correctly πŸ˜‰ @appdev

          marcusquinnM ruihildtR robiR 3 Replies Last reply
          2
          • fbartelsF fbartels

            @marcusquinn said in Dedicated chat for cloudron app packaging:

            Saying that, it might be handy if @app-dev mentioning was a thing?

            it is. you just need to do it correctly πŸ˜‰ @appdev

            marcusquinnM Offline
            marcusquinnM Offline
            marcusquinn
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            @fbartels 🀦 thanks πŸ™‚

            Web Design https://www.evergreen.je
            Development https://brandlight.org
            Life https://marcusquinn.com

            1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • nebulonN nebulon

              I am not generally opposed to having a chat dedicated for that, but a huge drawback of chats in such a case is the issue of discoverability for new people. So solutions worked out for issues will get lost easily and thus newcomers will end up raising similar/same questions again and again. I do believe the forum is still the best place to ask and work out solutions.

              I understand the turnaround time in a forum vs chat is different, but there is no problem using personal chats in our rocket.chat instance or so to quickly get down to an issue, nevertheless for the sake of community building up knowledge, it would usually still be tremendously helpful to then present solutions in the forum.

              For support we also sometimes use chat to solve issues quickly and then try to also followup with the solution if any in either forum or even docs.

              ruihildtR Offline
              ruihildtR Offline
              ruihildt
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              @nebulon @marcusquinn I totally understand the discoverability issue of chat logs and the value of having the information on the forums.

              As a beginner packager, I'm going to have series of questions that are easy to answer, but if I have to ask on the forum every time, what would be a 20 minutes things will turn into a multi-days endeavor, which will actively discourage me from doing it.

              Basically, this is to make app packaging for cloudron beginner friendly. I still think more complete discussion will happen on the forum and if we agree, we can set as policy for more involved questions to be asked on the forum.

              1 Reply Last reply
              1
              • nebulonN Offline
                nebulonN Offline
                nebulon
                Staff
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                Actually I think it would be best if you would raise those beginner questions individually on the forum and we can then pick them one-by-one and move them to the docs itself, if they are generic enough.

                Generally our docs still have a long way to go when it comes to packaging.

                ruihildtR 1 Reply Last reply
                2
                • fbartelsF fbartels

                  @marcusquinn said in Dedicated chat for cloudron app packaging:

                  Saying that, it might be handy if @app-dev mentioning was a thing?

                  it is. you just need to do it correctly πŸ˜‰ @appdev

                  ruihildtR Offline
                  ruihildtR Offline
                  ruihildt
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  @fbartels I don't want to be pinging every app developer and overload their notifications every time I have a question. Unless this is an agreed way of doing things and considered good practice.

                  There was this discussion when talking about implementing group vs badge, it was decided to use groups for technical reasons, even though @girish preferred to have simple badges to start with.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • nebulonN nebulon

                    Actually I think it would be best if you would raise those beginner questions individually on the forum and we can then pick them one-by-one and move them to the docs itself, if they are generic enough.

                    Generally our docs still have a long way to go when it comes to packaging.

                    ruihildtR Offline
                    ruihildtR Offline
                    ruihildt
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    @nebulon That would indeed create the best value for the community.

                    To me the question is more involved: do I want to spend time contributing to create documentation for free, for a project that's not free software?

                    This is coming full circle with discussions happening on other threads. I'm not trying to restart this discussion here, just explaining where I sit regarding this approach.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    1
                    • girishG Offline
                      girishG Offline
                      girish
                      Staff
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      We don't want to officially endorse a chat channel, would be a step back for us for reasons @nebulon mentioned. I think there is already a Cloudron matrix channel, isn't it? We can list it here in this category's pinned topic.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      4
                      • girishG Offline
                        girishG Offline
                        girish
                        Staff
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        OK, I have put the chat in https://forum.cloudron.io/topic/2843/read-first-before-starting-to-package-an-app . You can find us on matrix at #discuss:cloudron.io.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        2
                        • LonkleL Offline
                          LonkleL Offline
                          Lonkle
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          I personally basically live blogged my development on this forum: https://forum.cloudron.io/post/13323. It didn't feel very chat-like, but I did it in hopes it would help new developers. Since I was a new developer. Did it bother anyone, do you think a chat group would have been better in the end for me to have cluttered up the forum with (constantly "bumping" my thread to the top)? πŸ€”

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • girishG Offline
                            girishG Offline
                            girish
                            Staff
                            wrote on last edited by girish
                            #13

                            NodeBB threads can be easily ignored.

                            5dff9db6-d3a4-4fd3-945e-e9cae4d5eb40-image.png

                            (As for the constant bump, I guess it's fine. It doesn't affect my workflow atleast.)

                            LonkleL 1 Reply Last reply
                            2
                            • girishG girish

                              NodeBB threads can be easily ignored.

                              5dff9db6-d3a4-4fd3-945e-e9cae4d5eb40-image.png

                              (As for the constant bump, I guess it's fine. It doesn't affect my workflow atleast.)

                              LonkleL Offline
                              LonkleL Offline
                              Lonkle
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              @girish Oh yeah, you're right. Sweet!

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              1
                              • BrutalBirdieB Offline
                                BrutalBirdieB Offline
                                BrutalBirdie
                                Partner
                                wrote on last edited by BrutalBirdie
                                #15

                                I can understand the wish for a chat, but I agree with @nebulon and everyone else endorsing the official forum.

                                Having the conversation in the official forum has many benefits.

                                Lets just switch into the mindset of a new Cloudron user / developer.

                                Just as an example:

                                • I need the lamp app but with php 5.X.
                                • Why is there no php 5 lamp app?
                                • How can I create a custom php 5 app?

                                What do most people do? They will type that question into a search engine.

                                Chat vs. Forum

                                If this discussion would take place in the chat, there would be no way for a new user to find public and easy access to that information about this issue/question.
                                How should they know they need to go threw a chat with X people talking about all different kind of topics.
                                Also you lock this information behind a software like matrix, rocketchat, slack, matermost yada yada.

                                New users want answers which are accessible without needing to sign up for anything.

                                Compared to an open discussion in the forum, which will be scraped by search engines and will be publicly available with no need to sign up or do anything to access this information.

                                IMHO chat is nice, but when using one there has to be a policy where findings and solutions must be also published in this forum.
                                And enforcing such a policy or even establish such will be hard.

                                That's just what I have in mind about a chat.

                                Cheers 🍻

                                Like my work? Consider donating a drink. Cheers!

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                5
                                • LonkleL Offline
                                  LonkleL Offline
                                  Lonkle
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #16

                                  I tried using the Matrix and it wasn't as intuitive or as useful as the forums for development FWIW.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • fbartelsF fbartels

                                    @marcusquinn said in Dedicated chat for cloudron app packaging:

                                    Saying that, it might be handy if @app-dev mentioning was a thing?

                                    it is. you just need to do it correctly πŸ˜‰ @appdev

                                    robiR Offline
                                    robiR Offline
                                    robi
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #17

                                    @appdev
                                    It would brilliant if NodeBB could instatiate a chat within the appdev group right here in NodeBB.

                                    That would do for quick discussions, and no need to leave the forum.

                                    Conscious tech

                                    BrutalBirdieB 1 Reply Last reply
                                    1
                                    • robiR robi

                                      @appdev
                                      It would brilliant if NodeBB could instatiate a chat within the appdev group right here in NodeBB.

                                      That would do for quick discussions, and no need to leave the forum.

                                      BrutalBirdieB Offline
                                      BrutalBirdieB Offline
                                      BrutalBirdie
                                      Partner
                                      wrote on last edited by BrutalBirdie
                                      #18

                                      @robi said in Chat channel for cloudron app packaging:

                                      @appdev
                                      It would brilliant if NodeBB could instatiate a chat within the appdev group right here in NodeBB.

                                      That would do for quick discussions, and no need to leave the forum.

                                      You can start a chat with anyone from appdev and add the members.

                                      I can do that now as an example.

                                      ALT

                                      I think the best option would be, if you have a question to start a forum topic and just @appdev directly.
                                      Yes you could argue that every one gets a notification, but in the chat it would be the same thing, kind of.

                                      Adding to that, I also see no setting for Notifications & Sounds in NodeBB to stop notifications from @appdev mentions.

                                      Like my work? Consider donating a drink. Cheers!

                                      robiR 1 Reply Last reply
                                      3
                                      • BrutalBirdieB BrutalBirdie

                                        @robi said in Chat channel for cloudron app packaging:

                                        @appdev
                                        It would brilliant if NodeBB could instatiate a chat within the appdev group right here in NodeBB.

                                        That would do for quick discussions, and no need to leave the forum.

                                        You can start a chat with anyone from appdev and add the members.

                                        I can do that now as an example.

                                        ALT

                                        I think the best option would be, if you have a question to start a forum topic and just @appdev directly.
                                        Yes you could argue that every one gets a notification, but in the chat it would be the same thing, kind of.

                                        Adding to that, I also see no setting for Notifications & Sounds in NodeBB to stop notifications from @appdev mentions.

                                        robiR Offline
                                        robiR Offline
                                        robi
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #19

                                        @BrutalBirdie yes, that's a given, but always a manual addition of 1-to-1 vs 1-to-group.

                                        Conscious tech

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • LonkleL Offline
                                          LonkleL Offline
                                          Lonkle
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #20

                                          Mentioning the app dev’s is important. I think this is incredibly important to keep everything public. But us still getting notifications to help new devs. I say that as if I’m not a new dev. πŸ˜‚

                                          1 Reply Last reply
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