Video chat and conferencing options
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of course now it worked on the second attempt. but restarted both, turn and nextcloud, and now the errors appear again and no immediate connection is possible:
nextcloud log is empty, turn shows the following errors:
Apr 06 15:28:52 105: IPv4. tcp or tls connected to: mobileip:18426 Apr 06 15:28:52 105: session 001000000000000040: realm <desktopip> user <>: incoming packet message processed, error 401: Unauthorizedand this from connection attempt:
https://paste.cloudron.io/oqiqocayez.rb -
Hi all,
after @girish and @nebulon did a extremely well job to add TURN in a short time, I'm curious who is using what for video conferencing via Cloudron (or third party)?
It seems the COVID-19 "lockdowns" or "other ways of living and working" seems to take many more months, so a solid, safe and easy videoconferencing app is very welcome.
Options/roadmaps:
- Kopano-Meet doesn't work (for us)
- Jitsi isn't here yet
- BBB isn't here yet
- Nextcloud Talk is IMHO not really one-click-easy (has anyone experience with 6+ meetings?)
- other current apps on Cloudron?
- other third-party video conference solutions?
I'm curious for your experiences and opinions.
Kind regards,
Marcel
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- I added the webrtc plugin to my Etherpad and, possibly because the video window is rather small, it has been a very handy video chat option due to its clarity (and the audio was fine too), especially since the discussion involved what was written on the Etherpad. All within Cloudron.
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@imc67 Let me explain the situation a bit from the technical side. Here's a very simplified explanation (I am not a video conf expert
)WebRTC provides a peer to peer (p2p) mechanism for 2 browser to connect. In most cases, these 2 browsers can't just directly connect since they are behind firewalls and in internal networks. The TURN protocol helps these two connect.
The above applies only for video calls with 2 people. What if many people join? One has to establish p2p connections between each peer! So, if you have like 5 people, there are p2p connections going from each browser to another. This mesh architecture can fail in many ways which are hard to pin point and debug: the browser has to support taking in 4 streams and mixing them properly in your laptop, think of the latencies being different for each stream, each browser has to be on a network that has enough bandwidth to accept 4 stream continuously etc. This is the current situation with kopano meet, nextcloud talk for multi-party conferences. IMO, this won't ever be reliable in general.
The solution for multi-party conferences is to create a video bridge. The video bridge is a central party to which all the browsers stream to. The video bridge will mix everything and give out a single stream to the browser. There are various approaches to implementing this - SFU, MCU, a mix of both etc. Currently, we don't have a videobridge on Cloudron (jitsi-videobridge is one such project that provides it) and until we have that multi-party conferences won't be reliable. Note that TURN is a per-requisite for SFU/MCU setups as well (it can help establish connection from browser to SFU/MCU).
One thing to remember is that this videobridge will either be network heavy or CPU heavy and this will cost $ based on where the VPS is hosted. There is no way around this for self-hosted setups.
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@imc67 Let me explain the situation a bit from the technical side. Here's a very simplified explanation (I am not a video conf expert
)WebRTC provides a peer to peer (p2p) mechanism for 2 browser to connect. In most cases, these 2 browsers can't just directly connect since they are behind firewalls and in internal networks. The TURN protocol helps these two connect.
The above applies only for video calls with 2 people. What if many people join? One has to establish p2p connections between each peer! So, if you have like 5 people, there are p2p connections going from each browser to another. This mesh architecture can fail in many ways which are hard to pin point and debug: the browser has to support taking in 4 streams and mixing them properly in your laptop, think of the latencies being different for each stream, each browser has to be on a network that has enough bandwidth to accept 4 stream continuously etc. This is the current situation with kopano meet, nextcloud talk for multi-party conferences. IMO, this won't ever be reliable in general.
The solution for multi-party conferences is to create a video bridge. The video bridge is a central party to which all the browsers stream to. The video bridge will mix everything and give out a single stream to the browser. There are various approaches to implementing this - SFU, MCU, a mix of both etc. Currently, we don't have a videobridge on Cloudron (jitsi-videobridge is one such project that provides it) and until we have that multi-party conferences won't be reliable. Note that TURN is a per-requisite for SFU/MCU setups as well (it can help establish connection from browser to SFU/MCU).
One thing to remember is that this videobridge will either be network heavy or CPU heavy and this will cost $ based on where the VPS is hosted. There is no way around this for self-hosted setups.
@girish Great explanation.
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@imc67 Let me explain the situation a bit from the technical side. Here's a very simplified explanation (I am not a video conf expert
)WebRTC provides a peer to peer (p2p) mechanism for 2 browser to connect. In most cases, these 2 browsers can't just directly connect since they are behind firewalls and in internal networks. The TURN protocol helps these two connect.
The above applies only for video calls with 2 people. What if many people join? One has to establish p2p connections between each peer! So, if you have like 5 people, there are p2p connections going from each browser to another. This mesh architecture can fail in many ways which are hard to pin point and debug: the browser has to support taking in 4 streams and mixing them properly in your laptop, think of the latencies being different for each stream, each browser has to be on a network that has enough bandwidth to accept 4 stream continuously etc. This is the current situation with kopano meet, nextcloud talk for multi-party conferences. IMO, this won't ever be reliable in general.
The solution for multi-party conferences is to create a video bridge. The video bridge is a central party to which all the browsers stream to. The video bridge will mix everything and give out a single stream to the browser. There are various approaches to implementing this - SFU, MCU, a mix of both etc. Currently, we don't have a videobridge on Cloudron (jitsi-videobridge is one such project that provides it) and until we have that multi-party conferences won't be reliable. Note that TURN is a per-requisite for SFU/MCU setups as well (it can help establish connection from browser to SFU/MCU).
One thing to remember is that this videobridge will either be network heavy or CPU heavy and this will cost $ based on where the VPS is hosted. There is no way around this for self-hosted setups.
@girish said in Video chat and conferencing options:
One thing to remember is that this videobridge will either be network heavy or CPU heavy and this will cost $ based on where the VPS is hosted.
This is partly why, like some others, I think we'll soon need some sort of multi-host support so that it's possible to have a single Cloudron running over multiple servers (eg with one run vps just for a jitsi or BigBlueButton video bridge)
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@girish said in Video chat and conferencing options:
One thing to remember is that this videobridge will either be network heavy or CPU heavy and this will cost $ based on where the VPS is hosted.
This is partly why, like some others, I think we'll soon need some sort of multi-host support so that it's possible to have a single Cloudron running over multiple servers (eg with one run vps just for a jitsi or BigBlueButton video bridge)
@jdaviescoates said in Video chat and conferencing options:
This is partly why, like some others, I think we'll soon need some sort of multi-host support so that it's possible to have a single Cloudron running over multiple servers (eg with one run vps just for a jitsi or BigBlueButton video bridge)
I haven't looked into BBB but Jitsi's videbridge has the capability to be run standalone and can even connect to completely separate jitsi installations. This way, it is just like a CI system "worker" node (or the only office or collabora app for nextcloud). So, we could also look at making jitsi available without the video bridge as cloudron app and then connecting an external video bridge into it.
(I guess I am just trying to find a possible solution for not having to solve the cloudron multi-host problem which is quite a big project).
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@imc67 Let me explain the situation a bit from the technical side. Here's a very simplified explanation (I am not a video conf expert
)WebRTC provides a peer to peer (p2p) mechanism for 2 browser to connect. In most cases, these 2 browsers can't just directly connect since they are behind firewalls and in internal networks. The TURN protocol helps these two connect.
The above applies only for video calls with 2 people. What if many people join? One has to establish p2p connections between each peer! So, if you have like 5 people, there are p2p connections going from each browser to another. This mesh architecture can fail in many ways which are hard to pin point and debug: the browser has to support taking in 4 streams and mixing them properly in your laptop, think of the latencies being different for each stream, each browser has to be on a network that has enough bandwidth to accept 4 stream continuously etc. This is the current situation with kopano meet, nextcloud talk for multi-party conferences. IMO, this won't ever be reliable in general.
The solution for multi-party conferences is to create a video bridge. The video bridge is a central party to which all the browsers stream to. The video bridge will mix everything and give out a single stream to the browser. There are various approaches to implementing this - SFU, MCU, a mix of both etc. Currently, we don't have a videobridge on Cloudron (jitsi-videobridge is one such project that provides it) and until we have that multi-party conferences won't be reliable. Note that TURN is a per-requisite for SFU/MCU setups as well (it can help establish connection from browser to SFU/MCU).
One thing to remember is that this videobridge will either be network heavy or CPU heavy and this will cost $ based on where the VPS is hosted. There is no way around this for self-hosted setups.
@girish Do take a look at "Run your own Skype-like service in less than one hour" by the founder of the Kamailo SIP server open source project where Kamailo works together with Jitsi to enable many to collaborate meaningfully - via audio/video/ screen-sharing in one room - on not "too-big" a server.
Off course, it could be a "premium" Cloudron offering!
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@girish Do take a look at "Run your own Skype-like service in less than one hour" by the founder of the Kamailo SIP server open source project where Kamailo works together with Jitsi to enable many to collaborate meaningfully - via audio/video/ screen-sharing in one room - on not "too-big" a server.
Off course, it could be a "premium" Cloudron offering!
I wanted to follow up. I am thinking about seeing what I might be able to set up this weekend, using my cloudron setup. Much has changed with cloudron wigh @girish and @nebulon (and others) hard work updating Cloudron and getting TURN implemented. (Another thank you)
Much has also changed in the world with covid19.
I am curious what people are running- easily...????????I am still looking for:
Single login (or as few as possible)
File sharing (similar to next cloud)
1 on 1 video chat ( single click would be nice to launch)
Group chat ( similar to google hangouts or zoom)
Screen sharing , white boards, ether pad integrated in video call
Sharing prerecorded video
Ability to create & join conference from smartphone
Recording web conference ( can use OBS)
Remote Desktop like teamviewer. Had not thought about this, but this would be amazing.This is a pretty long list. What would be awesome is getting something off the ground like Zoom. @gish gave an excellent explanation of the hurdles creating a multi user video conference. So am I to assume that at this point selfhosting something like zoom is not really possible?
What have people had a chance to experiment with?
How many have people been able to create a group video chat with utilizing cloudron?
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I wanted to follow up. I am thinking about seeing what I might be able to set up this weekend, using my cloudron setup. Much has changed with cloudron wigh @girish and @nebulon (and others) hard work updating Cloudron and getting TURN implemented. (Another thank you)
Much has also changed in the world with covid19.
I am curious what people are running- easily...????????I am still looking for:
Single login (or as few as possible)
File sharing (similar to next cloud)
1 on 1 video chat ( single click would be nice to launch)
Group chat ( similar to google hangouts or zoom)
Screen sharing , white boards, ether pad integrated in video call
Sharing prerecorded video
Ability to create & join conference from smartphone
Recording web conference ( can use OBS)
Remote Desktop like teamviewer. Had not thought about this, but this would be amazing.This is a pretty long list. What would be awesome is getting something off the ground like Zoom. @gish gave an excellent explanation of the hurdles creating a multi user video conference. So am I to assume that at this point selfhosting something like zoom is not really possible?
What have people had a chance to experiment with?
How many have people been able to create a group video chat with utilizing cloudron?
@seeker said in Video chat and conferencing options:
While there are many solutions around that could fit your needs, I can only share what I am personally using/recommending for the various use cases you describe:
I am still looking for:
Single login (or as few as possible)Use oidc (OpenID Connect) whenever possible. As for oidc providers: you can use Kopano Meet (check @fbartels post on this for further information: Link) or Rocket.Chat as oidc providers for example. Many apps (Nextcloud, Rocket.Chat, NodeBB with plugin) support OpenID Connect.
File sharing (similar to next cloud)
I personally like Nextcloud for file sharing (and just for that purpose)
1 on 1 video chat ( single click would be nice to launch)
Kopano Meet is a great option here. No plugins necessary, works on mobile devices, private (internal) and external video chat with guests possible.
Group chat ( similar to google hangouts or zoom)
For group video chat, something with a MCU/videobridge would be necessary. Jitsi would be great for this, but packaging seems to be not an easy task.
Screen sharing , white boards, ether pad integrated in video call
For small groups with just a few people working on a document together, Nextcloud Talk with OnlyOffice would be an option as well.
Sharing prerecorded video
Not sure about that, maybe Nextcloud?
Ability to create & join conference from smartphone
Both Kopano Meet and Jitsi can be uses from mobile devices. Jitsi needs an app, Kopano Meet uses the WebRTC support available in all modern web browsers.
Recording web conference ( can use OBS)
Remote Desktop like teamviewer. Had not thought about this, but this would be amazing.Not sure about those two. I‘ve read about a self hosted open source alternative to TeamViewer, but haven‘t had a chance to give it a try (would have to see if I can still find the link to that).
Update: The TeamViewer alternative I was writing about was this: https://www.meshcommander.com - never tried nor looked deeper into this though...
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@seeker said in Video chat and conferencing options:
While there are many solutions around that could fit your needs, I can only share what I am personally using/recommending for the various use cases you describe:
I am still looking for:
Single login (or as few as possible)Use oidc (OpenID Connect) whenever possible. As for oidc providers: you can use Kopano Meet (check @fbartels post on this for further information: Link) or Rocket.Chat as oidc providers for example. Many apps (Nextcloud, Rocket.Chat, NodeBB with plugin) support OpenID Connect.
File sharing (similar to next cloud)
I personally like Nextcloud for file sharing (and just for that purpose)
1 on 1 video chat ( single click would be nice to launch)
Kopano Meet is a great option here. No plugins necessary, works on mobile devices, private (internal) and external video chat with guests possible.
Group chat ( similar to google hangouts or zoom)
For group video chat, something with a MCU/videobridge would be necessary. Jitsi would be great for this, but packaging seems to be not an easy task.
Screen sharing , white boards, ether pad integrated in video call
For small groups with just a few people working on a document together, Nextcloud Talk with OnlyOffice would be an option as well.
Sharing prerecorded video
Not sure about that, maybe Nextcloud?
Ability to create & join conference from smartphone
Both Kopano Meet and Jitsi can be uses from mobile devices. Jitsi needs an app, Kopano Meet uses the WebRTC support available in all modern web browsers.
Recording web conference ( can use OBS)
Remote Desktop like teamviewer. Had not thought about this, but this would be amazing.Not sure about those two. I‘ve read about a self hosted open source alternative to TeamViewer, but haven‘t had a chance to give it a try (would have to see if I can still find the link to that).
Update: The TeamViewer alternative I was writing about was this: https://www.meshcommander.com - never tried nor looked deeper into this though...
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Nextcloud Talk 9 coming out soon with some improvements.
Even more significantly, the high performance backend has been open sourced:
https://forum.cloudron.io/topic/2541/nextcloud-talk-high-performance-back-end/
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Jitsi docs got a rework - https://jitsi.github.io/handbook/ and https://docs.easyjitsi.com/docs/welcome. So we will revisit jitsi again after 5.2 release (should be out today/tomorrow).
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Jitsi docs got a rework - https://jitsi.github.io/handbook/ and https://docs.easyjitsi.com/docs/welcome. So we will revisit jitsi again after 5.2 release (should be out today/tomorrow).
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Jitsi docs got a rework - https://jitsi.github.io/handbook/ and https://docs.easyjitsi.com/docs/welcome. So we will revisit jitsi again after 5.2 release (should be out today/tomorrow).
@girish said in Video chat and conferencing options:
we will revisit jitsi again after 5.2 release
No idea if it's useful, but just in case it is, I just came across this Ansible role to install & configure Jitsi Meet on the CoTech forum and the person who shared said "Looks solid, has tests"
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Jitsi docs got a rework - https://jitsi.github.io/handbook/ and https://docs.easyjitsi.com/docs/welcome. So we will revisit jitsi again after 5.2 release (should be out today/tomorrow).
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@girish any updates on the estimates so far?
@potemkin_ai We are looking into packaging jitsi. @BrutalBirdie is helping us out here.
